Jeff

How about just a simple PM with a name? If you have such information, why would you keep it secret? I will be happy to check into it and report back. Also, if you would like, I would be happy to check with an AYP leader find out why any of you were banned. But, making vague and unsubstantiated claims like above is truly unfair. And completely undermines your (and your associates) credibility in any discussion.

Hi Seeker, Thanks for your thoughtful response. Your post touches on quite of few points. In general, I would agree that it is difficult for a beginner to be able to tell if they are really experiencing what AYP calls "inner silence", but this is true of any system where one just reads a book. That is one of the reasons why I think having a teacher is always helpful. Additionally, AYP a couple of years ago started having retreats to help teach. The fees for the retreats just cover facilities and instructors are not paid. An experienced practioner knows that with true "inner silence" there is a corresponding growth in the flow of energy. They are two sides of the same coin. Your listed research was on TM and not AYP. I am personally not familiar with TM, but there are numerous posts on the AYP forum discussing the differences. The only research on AYP (meditation) that I am aware of is a clinical study being done at a health system in the Detroit area. The study is focused on heart/cardiac issues, but the results I have seen are very positive. I think the paper is being published soon. The AYP forum has about 4800 members and 1800 who have posted. Most describe a much different experience than yours, but there is an endless number of experiences to read about. Finally, there are many members at AYP who describe they have realized the Self (or various degrees). I have found them all willing to chat by email (or on the forum). I have my own opinions, but everyone can easily make their own judgement. You may not agree with the practices, but you surely must agree that they are very open (and chatty) group that are always happy to talk about their experiences.

Given such a response, I will have to assume there is no such reference.

Who told you that? I would be very interested in such a reference.

Hi Gatito, Was there some point I missed in your simple repost of my words above? Or, did you find some iPad auto spelling error you wanted to save? Have a good weekend.

As everyone has said, it is all very common. As the "clarity" grows, it becomes easier to associate all of the feelings. Many even develop an "internal sight" to see it. The ldt is a very common point to start noticing stuff. Just try not to focus on it and keep up your meditation/practices. p.s. For me, cold was "inward" energy flow and hot was "outward".

Hi Seeker, I do not have your two years of direct practice experience with AYP, so it makes no sense for me to debate on personal experience, but I also know large numbers of people who have had very positive experiences. On interpretation issues... Just look at the endless AYP forum debates as to how to do deep meditation. Specifically, I don't think things like "fuzzy" should set off warning bells. Meditation itself, is really just a contrived state of mind. Focusing/concentrating on anything (even a mantra) can become a mind trap. That is why I prefer more "Dzogchen like" practices. What is your current path (practices)? What would you recommend?

The changes are usually associated with becoming aware of the energy body. In the early stages, your "mind" tends to translate the feelings of energy into things that you can understand. Feelings of hot/cold are often first (in being noticed). Tingly (or simple vibrations) is usually a more advanced step. You are probably noticing it when your mind is quieter (or moments of shock/awe). Tingly means feeling it moving, numbness in an area of tingles, usually means an issue/obstruction in the energy body.

Great Idea on the group meditation. There is a meaningful differential with the group dynamic.

Hi Gatito, If you are not already a lawyer, you would make a good one... Treating me like a "hostile witness"... To answer your question (positively), there are a few things that I think could be changed/improved upon... While I think AYP has a good set of basic practices, there are a lot of challenges with any framework of the online/book delivery concept. Without a direct teacher, too much can be lost/confused without understanding. In the beginning stages, it is much easier to have a "one size fits all" approach, but as seekers advance and begin to experience energy, it becomes much more challenging. Another issue, is that Yogani wants to help others and share his knowledge/experience, but he does not want to be a guru for the group. Since I have hung around AYP, he mostly leaves questions to forum members. There are 4 or 5 members who know what they are talking about to various levels, but the masses (like any forum), only think they understand, so they continually quote lessons (I would agree they can become a little religious ). Since AYP is a "defined" system, Yogani or a few other "approved" senior people should just be allowed to respond to higher level practice questions. Like any ashram, there should be some sort of hierarchy. On basic practice specifics for beginners, I think it would be helpful to add a grounding component to the meditations (no place for excess energy to go). Also, I think AYP worries too much about avoiding the crown chakra. With advanced students, you need to be able to "go under the covers", otherwise it is easy to be confused in/about consciousness. Also, one needs to have a better understanding of the energy/inquiry dynamic or it can create unnecessary problems that a true guru could manage for the person. A couple of the senior AYP people mentor others, but it is an informal "friend" system. Overall, I would agree it could be more open in the AYP forums, but in my discussions with him, Yogani sees the purpose of the forum as to "explain AYP practices" rather than to discuss practices in general. (I have actually asked him to be more of a guru for the forums). But, to me, AYP is no different than the normal Buddhist site, try to debate their practices and see what happens... The Taobums is much more wide open, which one of the reasons I like to hang around here. We may disagree on this, but I think there a lot of good (and some knowledgable) people who hang around AYP. p.s. on "personally disagree with"... that is hard to tell as using words allow for many different interpretations.

How do you know that the person is experiencing "torpor" or clarity? With AYP or any practice? One does not truly know that they have let go of an issue/obstruction until they face the issue again. Also, I think any online/book system becomes very challenging as each person interprets words completely differently. That is one of the reasons why individual teachers become so important.

Are you asking why it was not a fit for me or how I think it could be improved?

Was that part relevant to my point...? Also, I thought above you said you were done with the discussion... (edit - added "with the discussion" part)

Me too.

As I have said many times (in many threads), I like a bunch of the people on the AYP forum, but my practice focus has been different. I also agree that healthy discussion of any path is useful and should not be a reason for banning.

You just need to pick up the post pace...

Welcome back.

Didn't realize that I am "typical"... But, I would agree that AYP is essentially a "closed" system. He was always fine with me posting new concepts/ideas to Other systems, but not particularly interested in discussing "changes" to the system. Also, I don't see the cult part. One of the senior members, Christi, is even having an "advanced" (nonstandard stuff) retreat in the UK.

AYP is definitely a "system" (good or bad depending on your view) and Yogani believes that the purpose of the main sections of forum is to explain AYP practices. If people (like me ) sometimes want to give non-AYP practice suggestions, he just says to use the Other Systems section. But, I would agree that the mods there, don't like people posting non-AYP advice to members in AYP sections. I have just found that there are few members worth having "under the covers (AYP term)" email discussions with.

Have you shared your concerns with him or any of the senior members? I have found that many of the senior members augment their basic AYP practices.

Yep, there are a bunch of pro and con AYPers around the bums. I am very familiar (even visted an AYP retreat), friends with many of them, but my path has been different. I have had some good email discussions with Yogani about my concerns/differences. You will probably disagree, but I have found him to be a nice guy. (edit - fixed "and")

Thank you for the thought (mind) provoking post. A question... In "finding" the true present, how is it helpful to "*Treat everything you perceive as a dream"? When one considers nothing percieved as "real", does one stay focused in the moment or wander (in time and thought)?

No, then it is a theory, waiting for the data. Most of advanced physics is currently in this state. Maybe not too much longer for the Higgs particle...

Being able to prove (or disprove) like with the creation point above, can be challenging... I agree that the "divine never ending story" is off topic. You seem to have what you believe is a definitive position on it. Why not start a thread on it? I would be very interested in hearing (and discussing) it. Back to the topic of this thread...

My point was directed to your logic relative to your earlier point. It was inconsistent. I agree that it is very difficult to talk about absolute existence (or non existence). How does one describe (or prove) absolute existence from a relative position? Do you have a definition we can use/discuss?