Jeff

Hi MH, We seem to have lost even Shaman Flowing Hands from his tread... On enlightenment vs. divine, deci belle was kind enough to give some hints in another thread... This from the book by Longchenpa, You Are the Eyes of the World, translated by Kennard Lipman and Merrill Peterson with introduction by Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche. 2000. Now if I could write like a teacher, I would— but even though I'm not a teacher, I know what I want to say to you all. In this tradition, direct teacher to student transmission of the natural state is the rule; even so, the natural state itself, is not dependent on this or any teaching. The parallel taoist teachings maintain that one see essence on one's own~ then seek a teacher. It is the natural state of human being— one's inherent state. But this not tao. Its source is tao. Additionally, there is that which is beyond tao. After seeing essence and solidifying the achievement, one must still empty openness, sublimate oneself physically and spiritually, take the forward step with hands open and enter the tao in reality— which is none other than this very existence. There is no other time, place or mind … What do you think?

Are Immortals or Buddha's able to take action and "effect the wave" that they surf, while enlightened beings only surf? Or, is there only surfing?

My point about "union" or as Jesus says "make male and female into a single one" was a little different than talking about same sex couples. What about balancing male and female components (or energies)? Could this "integration" also be part of the differience between "enlightenment" and "divine"?

Hi MH, Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I think the meaning of "union" here may go deeper than the most obvious concept. The following words from the Gospel of Thomas touch on the point... Jesus said to them, "When you make the two into one, and when you make the inner like the outer and the outer like the inner, and the upper like the lower, and when you make male and female into a single one, so that the male will not be male nor the female be female, when you make eyes in place of an eye, a hand in place of a hand, a foot in place of a foot, an image in place of an image, then you will enter [the kingdom]." Also, I agree that it is significant that the Sage is one of Ten Thousand Things. Doesn't that definition seem to be different than what Buddhism would say about the nature of a Buddha? Finally, anyone have any thoughts on the difference between enlightenment and divine?

Since the discussion seems to have slipped away.... I would like to discuss the meaning of the first part of CHAPTER 55... He who is at one with the Dao experiences all things. Therefore the Sage is whole; he experiences the union of man and woman, so he knows of the ways of mankind. Without this, he is not following the way of Nature. The Sage is one of the Ten Thousand Things, but his grip on the Dao is firm. Having experienced all things, he can obtain enlightenment. Through enlightenment, he can become Divine. There are many interesting concepts in this section. What is meant by "union" in this context? Is it important that the Sage is one of the Ten Thousand Things? It is implied that enlightenment is different that being Divine. Any thoughts?

One accesses higher dimensions (or deeper levels of consciousness) by residing in the moment. In the moment, one first feels the energy (or vibrations). The energy flow increases as issues/obstructions are released. As clarity increases, the energy refines. When residing in the moment becomes the natural state, energies beyond the body are noticed and accessable. Higher dimensions (and beings) are then available.

Thanks. It was pretty cool.

Do immortals have "free will" to do as they wish? Or, does their power come from being with the "flow" of Tao?

Does it appear that the "vanishing point" is a point where many may attach themselves? Possible that some who have had very "difficult and painful" lives find this comfortable?

Hi ET, The word interpretation issue is far less interesting then the time perception. While I agree that there are there can be your three components, each fluctuates as knowledge of the topic grows/changes in the now. Looking back at a memory, one often thinks... what the hell was I thinking back then... I would be very interested in hearing more about your out of "linear space-time" experiences. As I have noticed/experienced a few out of phase events, my current theory is similar to what you are describing. FYI, I have also found one other person who describes partial out of time perception, but as of yet have not been able to experimentally verify anything.

Very interesting concept. Have you experienced this? Do you have the ability to percieve all moments? Travel back (or forward), outside of the perception of time?

Awesome...

Hi deci belle, Thank you for the guiding words. I have also found similar approaches of direct introduction described in gnostic Christianity (Thunder Path). Also, very wise word in there is no "done", the mystery always continues to unfold...

I also like to play. Consider that in defining a person by their words that you may be judging unfairly. A loving father (or teacher) may use harsh words to get across the point. The "truth" may appear cruel rather than compassionate. Compassion is judged by the ego, not Tao. On my point about back and forth and the words being lonely... It was really more a statement to the group in general to maybe discuss the topic, rather than each other...

A lot of back and forth to each other, but in it the words are very "lonely"... It seems that no one likes to play... ET, Please explain... - *the words are equally reading you* ... And then they may not be alone any more...

Why? Just more opportunities to experience and play...

Depending on how you define "God", there is a direct correlation. On the "void" being God, look at the words... In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. (Genesis 1:1, 2 KJV) In Genesis, the void is defined as separate from the "Spirit". In the TTC, the first separation is the the void & silence.

From chapter 52 of the TTC (Shamen Flowing Hands Version)... In silence and in the void the Dao formed Heaven and Earth. The Ten Thousand Things are formed by it.

Selected part of the Heart Sutra... "O Sariputra! Form does not differ from the void, and the void does not differ from the form. Form is the void, and the void is form. The same is true for feelings, conceptions, impulses and consciousness. O Sariputra, the characteristics of the void is not created, not annihilated, not impure, not pure, not increasing, not decreasing. Therefore, in the void there are no forms and no feelings, conceptions, impulses and no consciousness: there is no eye, ear, nose, tongue, body or mind; there is no form, sound, smell, taste, touch or idea; no eye elements, until we come to no elements of consciousness; no ignorance and also no ending of ignorance, until we come to no old age and death; and no ending of old age and death.

Always the best answer...

I would suggest that the female/male principle separation can be seen in the void and silence. With the void being most naturally thought of as the "female" part of creation.

Great question... Non differentiation + potential comes "earlier" and is part of "raw Tao". Potential which at "lower layers" becomes energy or chi is part of the differentiation process. It can also be thought of as the motion (or change of state) of Tao. Physical existence (10,000 things) is the further refinement (or vibration) of energy. Everything exists, but it is really just the mind interpretation of the movement (or vibrations) of Tao.

This place is the wild west. Pretty much shoot at anything you like...

Understand completely... That is why I said "not good or bad".