Jeff

That statement seems to be huge departure from Flowing Hands version. Ta-kao says "restore them to simplicity", stating an active doing, while SFH version seems to leave the people alone (and not interfere).

Agree that there is not much order to it. Have often thought it would be helpful to group them as some of the verses kind of go together and make a good progression.

If I understand what you are asking, then yes future lives are also possible to notice/access. In some cases, what people think of as higher beings could be noticing/connecting to your own "future self" that has a more integrated whole of the vase. But, more broadly, you seem to be thinking about this as building/creating as a process, but it is really more like the vase is not actually broken into pieces, rather aspects of the broader whole are "obscured" by karma/issues/fears. So rather than really integrating past and future lives, at higher levels, it is more about clearing away the crap the obscures the direct knowing of the broader being. Very much like with becoming fully Siva (in KS). It should just also be realized that Siva is also ultimately empty too. Or, you could also say that each 10,000 thing (individual life) is really a Third (potential of all 10,000 things - Integrated lives), that is the independent layer of the One, which emerges from the Dao.

From a linear time view, there is no in-between or dormant time between the lives. Maybe think of it like shattered pieces of that vase. Nothing of the vase in-between those shattered pieces, just space.

Evolution from life to life? Again, that implies some linear time framework. Beyond time and space, it is all sort of concurrent. From the perspective of the individual body-mind it is one and done. From the perspective of the broader "whole" beyond time and space, there are no such things as "dormant" as that is again some concept within time and between lives.

Yes, in a relativistic time based perception. That is the inherent nature of games of the mind...

A true Daoist knows this... SIX The valley spirit never dies; It is the woman, primal mother. Her gateway is the root of heaven and earth. It is like a veil barely seen. Use it; it will never fail. Anything else is slower games of the mind...

Yes, but then it would not be truly “just being”. If it was constrained as you described, there is no infinite potential, it would be mentally bounded.

To me, Love is a tough word depending on your definition. If one is "just being" it is more like a pure and unattached radiating. The buddhist word of bodchitta is pretty good, but still at a mind level and dualistic. To use the word love, it would have to be infinitely universal with no favorites. More like universal growth with the ultimate realization of unlimited potential. Also, more like a universal flow, than a stop and smell the roses kind of thing. Just like the growth and blooming of a flower.

How do you interpret only those who care for others as they care for themselves, as only meaning humility? What does "care for others" mean to you? Also, chapter 28 specifically states what is necessary for becoming a "stream of the universe"... TWENTY-EIGHT Know the strength of a man, But keep a woman’s care! Be the stream of the universe! Being the stream of the universe, Ever true and unswerving, Become as a little child once more. ... What do you think a "woman's care" is? It is a loving mom like caring for her children. Other translations even state it as a woman's heart. Knowing the "strength of a man" is only half of the equation if one is ever going to become "a little child once more" (golden child).

Agreed, but that "just being" has infinite potential...

I was just disagreeing with your point about them not being factors and providing textual support for it. I am not particularly trying to make some statement regarding "love" as being the fundamental nature of your being. The concept of love would be more like a local body-mind mental translation of a broader primordial view. At a more primordial level, I would say the fundamental nature is more like why a flower grows in the sun. Something more like "pure" desire and expansion.

I would disagree. From the Tao Te Ching... THIRTEEN Accept disgrace willingly. Accept misfortune as the human condition. What do you mean by “Accept disgrace willingly”? Accept being unimportant. Do not be concerned with loss or gain. This is called “accepting disgrace willingly.” What do you mean by “Accept misfortune as the human condition”? Misfortune comes from having a body. Without a body, how could there be misfortune? Surrender yourself humbly; then you can be trusted to care for all things. Love the world as your own self; then you can truly care for all things. Or if you prefer a reference to the Heart... EIGHT The highest good is like water. Water gives life to the ten thousand things and does not strive. It flows in places people reject and so is like the Tao. In dwelling, be close to the land. In meditation, go deep in the heart. In dealing with others, be gentle and kind. In speech, be true. In ruling, be just. In business, be competent. In action, watch the timing. No fight: No blame.

No, my point with adding the verses from the gospel of John is a little different. I was trying to better show what "belongs to Jesus" and better differentiate how it sort of theoretically works related to GOT 100. As the verse states... 100. They showed Jesus a gold coin and said to him, "The Roman emperor's people demand taxes from us." He said to them, "Give the emperor what belongs to the emperor, give God what belongs to God, and give me what is mine." Remember that Jesus is "Christ" or you could say the basis of "Oneness (in Christ)". Maybe think of it like the Father is the Dao, and Jesus is the One that emerges from the Dao, and is one with or connected to everyone. Hence, the stuff that "belongs to Jesus" is the higher aspects of everyone that facilitates that oneness (in Christ). The verses of John describe sort of what "blocks" this and why there is the need for the "comforter" to come... 8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 Of sin, because they believe not on me; 10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; 11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged. So those thing that block are "sin" as issues and fears that block from seeing/knowing Christ/Father and mental "judgement". More broadly in John, Jesus touches on the very important polarity dynamic with the coming of the comforter. In mystical Christian terms, Jesus goes to "heaven" (right hand of Father) to be the source of light for the world, which would be the "transmission" side of the polarity. While the comforter becomes the ultimate reception (or Valley of the universe in taoist terms) and vacuums up all of the issues and fears blocking realization. This is described with... 13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. 14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. Speaking in this context is energy transfer or broadcasting. So he shall not speak of himself and only of what he hears, means that he does not transmit energy himself, but only reflect, purifies and returns the energy that is sent to him. And that purification "shows you the things to come" or higher stuff.

Any such contact or issues/experiences like that in the last year? Thanks.

100. They showed Jesus a gold coin and said to him, "The Roman emperor's people demand taxes from us." He said to them, "Give the emperor what belongs to the emperor, give God what belongs to God, and give me what is mine." I think to understand what would be "Jesus'" and what would be "God's", it is important to see this in sort of the broader context provided by John... John 16:7-16 7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. 8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 Of sin, because they believe not on me; 10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; 11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged. 12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. 13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. 14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. 15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you. 16 A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me, because I go to the Father. And the importance of the "Comforter" who will come when he leaves. And how it is the comforter that "shall receive of mine (Jesus)". Also, how you see Jesus, then you can't, and then you can see him again. (sort of like a zen koan mountain )

Is it? What belongs to God, and what belongs to Jesus?

No, I am not saying there is a continuous flow from one form to another. More like "ultimately" there is a complete vase, but it is shattered into pieces within time and space. The individual components have the potential to realize and then integrate with the other pieces. It is not just some "spirit" flowing from life to next life in time. Each piece, from there own individual perspective, more just dies /ends, until some wholistic integration where some piece brings it all together. Another way to think of it, is that "you" bubbled up from the Dao to become a "One", but that One is not fully clear/integrated/conscious, and the "pockets" on conscious attach to the energy around them which are what you think of as individual lives (or a 10,000 thing).

Yes, agreed. As we are talking about "mind" powerful (or ego desires). For those who want to be powerful (full of desire), the mind is like a wall trapping you. For those that let go of all of that, the can escape what never really actually held them in the first place.

98. Jesus said, "The Father's kingdom is like a person who wanted to kill someone powerful. While still at home he drew his sword and thrust it into the wall to find out whether his hand would go in. Then he killed the powerful one." But, a good one... Maybe some hints for the discussion... When you are at "home" spiritually, you are in the local body-mind. The wall is your mind. Can you cut through it, start to get outside of it? On someone powerful, do the powerful get into the father's kingdom, or the meek?

Sounds like I did not do a very good job of explaining. The individual fragments do not get carried over from life to life (or form to form). Each one is part of the greater whole. While the pieces appear to be separate (lives), beyond time and space they are all really One. It is just that the Oneness of the greater whole is obscured with the issues/fears/attachment/karma. In Taoist terms you could say that everyone is a One that emerges (or bubbles up) from the Dao, but from the perspective of an individual life, they only see themselves as a 10,000 thing. Immortality is realizing beyond being just the individual aspect/fragment which is bound within time & space and has limited existence (dies). The TTC describes the path from a 10,000 thing like this... SIXTEEN Empty yourself of everything. Let the mind become still. The ten thousand things rise and fall while the self watches their return. They grow and flourish and then return to the source. Returning to the source is stillness, which is the way of nature. The way of nature is unchanging. Knowing constancy is insight. Not knowing constancy leads to disaster. Knowing constancy, the mind is open. With an open mind, you will be openhearted. Being openhearted, you will act royally. Being royal, you will attain the divine. Being divine, you will be at one with the Tao. Being at one with the Tao is eternal. And though the body dies, the Tao will never pass away. Attaining and “being” divine is the key to becoming One with the Tao. Being Openhearted is critical as it is the first step for being able to connect with the divine and become “royal”.

Interesting on the fragments. Thanks for sharing.

Thanks again. So then no perceptional experience, feeling or sense of an interconnected past or future life?

Thanks for sharing, but I am still a little confused by what you mean related to the concept of reincarnation. Is there any continuity between these new lives other than what you call the undifferentiated lifeforce? Are you basically saying that there is more like one general lifeforce that manifests in different ways as all life rather than any concept of “independent” sentient beings?

Sure. While I get how things can be perceived like reincarnation from the relative perspective of a flow of time. To me, it is much more like their are fractured components of a greater whole in time and space. “Outside of time and space” it is all really happening concurrently as part of a greater whole. So each life is more like a limited aspect view of the greater whole. As an aspect clears some major issues/fears/Karma, the can cascade through the greater whole and relatively effecting each of the components. At higher levels of realization one begins to have access to and later integrate those components.