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Everything posted by Jeff
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Yes, it is not about forcing, maybe think of it more like exploring the body region and being curious. Sort of simply reside in it. As an example, I am going to send you an “energy hug” now. As you read this message, just relax and see what you can feel or sense. If you get something, you get it. If you don’t, you don’t. Just a game and be curious, no winning or losing.
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Sure on a potential blockage. Until much later stages, one does not really feel the chi (movement). It is much more that you feel the resistance to movement of the chi hitting some obstruction. In normal mind terms, obstructions are subconscious issues and fears that block the flow. Flow increases with letting go of these issues and fears (karma). So rather than a tightness or clenching, a good flow would feel more like an “unclenching”. At a mental level, rather than pushing or forcing, it is like you now have more mental space or room to move.
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Welcome to the bums. Some answers for you below... Yes, it is sort of measurable and there is a theoretical maximum one can store. The female energy body can actually store more than a male one (at the same relative level). Physical body size has nothing to do with chi/energy. Chi is stored at the energy body layer/level. You hopefully realize beyond the concept of the local body mind, otherwise your capacity/ability is limited. The Tao Te Ching chapter 28 describes the higher stages. A full body would be like the beginning where you “know the strength of a man”. It is unlikely that it would feel like a tightness at the stomach. But, at early stages it can sometimes feel like temperature changes. More commonly it feels a vibrational feel.
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I would agree and that is why I did the mapping to the Taoist text. But, in some cases the GOT is easier to understand.
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It is about giving your full attention by listening with both ears, as opposed to listening (and trying to pay attention) to something else at the same time. Sort of like saying, don't listen to other stuff now and pay attention only to this...
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The meaning is basically the same as this Chaper from the Tao Te Ching... SIX The valley spirit never dies; It is the woman, primal mother. Her gateway is the root of heaven and earth. It is like a veil barely seen. Use it; it will never fail. The gateway is the little leaven that is hid in the dough. It helps everything “rise” into larger loaves...
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Well said. Thanks.
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Yes, but one could easily read what you posted to me and subjectively see it as you questioning my respect and taking the discussion of topic with it to distract me. With your “huh?”, are you not saying that you are saying that you dont see my point at all and disagreeing with me. That you are not acknowledging my point as a reasonable (but different) view. Again the subjective nature of such views. Yes, but how is that any different than my previous example with the Tao Te Ching? Are you not doing the exact same thing as your multiple Nondual Shivas? Stating that you totally disagree with the authortative text that completely states that the One emerges from the Dao? Again you just stated a new position that I have somehow stated that I think you have the power or capacity to prevent someone from entering into such a discussion. As you are well aware, I have made no such statement. You have just violated your own rules again with using a straw man technique against me in this discussion.
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No, I think that you have been respectful and I have enjoyed our discussions (otherwise, I would not have engaged in the first place). But, if you look at your above response to me, you have not at all responded to my actual point. My actual point was... Essentially, arguing that it is a subjective point and hence not really possible, unless at the gross extremes (ongoing trolling). Instead, you took my example and twisted the actual discussion into some point about questioning my respect for you (when I would hope that after all of these years, you would know that I do). In essence, with your own response to me, you made a back door ad hominem attack twisting away from my actual point in the thread. Or, at least this is an obvious interpretation that one could draw from your response to me. My point is not to say that I felt attacked, but to once again demonstrate the challenge to your suggested approach. It is all subjective. It is very much like having a dress code at a restaurant. We can all agree that you should not be allowed to go naked, but are jeans inappropriate?
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To me, the challenge with your description above is that it implies that there is somehow a higher (or absolute) view defining that someone’s comments fit in one of your four buckets. Without some absolute judge catorgizing the discussion, the perceived difference between a vada, jalpa, or vitanda is left to the respective parties of the discussion. If you are the one being disagreed with (and believe yourself to be correct), you will fight to prove your point. So whether something is vada, jalpa or vitanda is totally subjective based upon the perceptional mind view (and individual prejudices) of that individual. A good example has been our an many past discussions regarding in Daoism whether the One=Dao (your view) or the One emerges from the Dao (my view). While I consider our discussion to be of equals, you repeatedly ignore the teachings of the TTC which clearly describe that the Taoist view is that the One emerges (based upon your personal AV perspective). In such a case, since you have never agreed with what the TTC actually says, should I assume that on your part the discussion is a jalpa because you have not respected the Taoist view? Or a vitanda? When my own personal view is that I am engaged from a vada perspective. Food for thought...
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I do not see why the topic should have been moved. While Hindu terms may have been used, the topic itself seem to be about the nature of interaction among members and the nature of debate itself. While I am personally not a fan of trying to limit what members can say or not say, or have an approved methodology from debate, I do feel that this is a “general” topic.
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I would say this is a little closer on the biblical version... Luke 11:9-10 9 And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you. 10 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
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Jeff replied to dwai's topic in Hindu Discussion
The difference is that there is both ways in KS. Remember that realization in KS is "conscious" where one has direct access to the Jiva going to Siva level previously discussed. Your passive thing is always ongoing, but the conscious/active is much stronger and allows a whole new set of possible practices. An example below is described by Ahbinagupta with the ritual of adoration... "This is the reason why during the rites of adoration of the circle one must remain attentive and not allow anyone to enter whose consciousness is in a dispersed state and not concentrated and absorbed, because he will be a source of contraction. In the practice of the circle one must adore all of the bodies of all those present because since they have all penetrated in the fullness of consciousness they are as if they were in our own body. If through some negligence a stranger succeeds in entering, the initiated ritual may proceed together with him provided that he does not enter in a state of contraction. Such a one, if divine grace falls upon him, will become concentrated and absorbed with the various rituals, but if he is struck by a sinister and malevolent power of the Lord, he will criticize the group." It is vastly more powerful because in passive mode, the transfer is only based upon the level/potential of the person. In what you call active mode, it is possible for the master to share directly at a higher level. Sort of like the person can draft directly at that higher level. I chose the above quote to answer your question at a more detailed level about a "level 3". It is less about the transmission, but about the acceptance and letting go in that space. But, in my terms a level 3 has not opened their heart, and so are in KS terms in a state of contraction, hence they would not be a good candidate for something like a ritual of adoration. -
How would that work with something like Genesis when you start out presupposing a God, then say that he created heaven and earth, with the earth being void? Where is the known part orientation?
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Jeff replied to dwai's topic in Hindu Discussion
I am a sorry that I used the word blob as that now seems to have become the focus rather than the actual point that I was trying to make. The difference that I am trying to describe is why I added the earlier Buddhist sutra quote. The difference is that it is all happening within yourself and not some “awareness that it is happening in”. And since it is within, one directly knows and can be active or passive. As the Shiva Sutras describe... 1.19. śaktisandhāne śarīrotpattiḥ By infusing his energy of will the embodiment of that which is willed occurs at once. 1.20. bhūtasaṁdhāna-bhūtapṛithaktva- viśvasaṁghaṭṭāḥ By the greatness of this achievement of the energy of will the yogī can focus his awareness and heal the sick and suffering, separate elements from his body and be free from the limitations of space and time. 1.21. śuddhavidyodyāccakreśatva-siddhiḥ (When this yogī does not desire limited powers and is eager to attain the knowledge of universal being then) . . . pure knowledge rises and by that knowledge he becomes the master of the universal wheel. 1.22. mahāhṛidānusaṁdhānān mantravīryānubhavaḥ By the attentive continuity of meditation on the great ocean of consciousness the power of supreme I is attained. -
You are NOT qualified to critique a Spiritual Tradition if...
Jeff replied to dwai's topic in Hindu Discussion
Agreed. Yes, understood. But those three bodies of the same Brahman is what I previous referred to as the Brahman “blob”, as there are no other lets call them “intermediate steps” that one can fully become (somewhat similar to the Daoist concept of becoming an immortal). Additionally, I believe that in AV one more realizes their component state in Brahman, then actually becoming conscious as Ishwara or Brahman. -
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Jeff replied to dwai's topic in Hindu Discussion
I would disagree with your above description of KS. There is only one ultimate Siva. But each being or aspect has the ability to grow/expand to become fully Siva (at a consciously aware level). In theory, to actually get truly infinite (independent) Sivas, you would have add Buddha’s concept of emptiness to KS, with its infinite Buddhas. -
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Jeff replied to dwai's topic in Hindu Discussion
I think we may be talking about differnent things or aspects and missing my point with your straw man comment. My point on the “blob” aspect was in relation to what I was trying to describe as the Jiva-Siva layer or phase. That is why I also included the Buddhist quote to try to help define that relative space as one of increasing perceptional differentiation. Additionally, that space includes the ongoing dissolution of subconscious attachments (like addiction to smoking), otherwise there is not the necessary clarity to have the direct conscious perception. If you sort of think of it like Shiva is the universal mind of all interconnected, then it is very much like one brings the subconscious aspects of first local mind, and then all of universal mind into conscious awareness. One becomes fully (all of) Shiva themself, not some component that dissolves into the greater whole. The fundamental difference between the two traditions is in this existence (or not) of this “higher” layer beyond the causal body. Both traditions suppose a shift from dualistic seeing, to more nondualist being, but with this additional layer, KS supposes a layer of differential nondual being. -
That is very sad news. He is a very valuable light and teacher for the world. Thank you for sharing.
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Jeff replied to dwai's topic in Hindu Discussion
In KS everything is an aspect of Shiva. But, to your question, Spanda would be something the motion or movement of Shiva. The major difference would be that Shiva is consciously aware of the movement, as compared to Brahman being more like an unaware blob. The consciously aware aspect is found in the extra body/layer that I earlier described as the Jiva-Siva divine phase. While this is borrowing from buddhism, I think this sutra describes the nature of the conscious realization at this layer itself. Things are both real and not real, but there is direct conscious knowing (not just a nondual cessation of knowing). Also, there is no attachment to things like smoking at this level of existence. For a KS version of this, just change bodhisattvas to sages, and Buddha to Shiva... Avatamsaka Sutra... Great bodhisattvas have no attachment to Buddha and do not develop attachments; they have no attachment to the teachings and do not develop attachments; they have no attachment to lands and do not develop attachments; they have no attachments to sentient beings and do not develop attachments. They do not see that there are sentient beings, yet they carry on educational activity, civilizing and teaching ways of liberation; they do not give up the practices of bodhisattvas with great compassion and great commitment. Seeing buddhas and hearing their teachings, they act accordingly; trusting the buddhas they plant roots of goodness, ceaselessly honoring and serving them. They are able to shake infinite worlds in the ten directions by spiritual powers; their minds are broad, being equal to the cosmos. They know various explanations of truth, they know how many sentient beings there are, they know the differences among sentient beings, they know the birth of suffering, they know the extinction of suffering; while knowing all acts are like reflected images, they carry out the deeds of bodhisattvas. They sever the root of all subjection to birth. They carry out practices of bodhisattvas for the sole purpose of saving sentient beings and yet do not practice anything. Conforming to the essential nature of all buddhas, they develop a mind like an immense mountain. They know all falsehood and delusion, and enter the door of omniscience. Their knowledge and wisdom are broad and vast and unshakable, due to the attainment of true enlightenment. This is the insight of practical knowledge of equally saving all sentient beings in the ocean of birth and death. -
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Jeff replied to dwai's topic in Hindu Discussion
Really, seems pretty direct and straightforward to me. The next group down get to even have "ambitions" and they are still Jivanmuktas. Finally, the last class of sages seem to just be regular people with all of the normal issues and desires (pleasures and pains) and they are still realized as described in your text... 92-94. The last class and the least among the Sages are those whose practice and discipline are not perfect enough to destroy mental predispositions. Their minds are still active and the Sages are said to be associated with their minds. They are barely Jnanis and not Jivanmuktas as are the other two classes. They appear to share the pleasures and pains of life like any other man and will continue to do so till the end of their lives. They will be emancipated after death. -
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Jeff replied to dwai's topic in Hindu Discussion
Thanks, this is helpful and also highlights to me the differences with many other traditions. So in AV, the best class of sages can still have all of their normal desires and it does not in any way obstruct realization? Theoretically you could be addicted to porn and still be a fully realized Jivanmukta? -
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Jeff replied to dwai's topic in Hindu Discussion
Different level of sages (or effective realization) in AV? Can you share the differences or what causes the different types of realization? -
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Jeff replied to dwai's topic in Hindu Discussion
Yes, you have remained steadfast in that view. Thanks for the discussion. -
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Jeff replied to dwai's topic in Hindu Discussion
They are not separate approaches. They are all from the Shiva Sutras, but for different levels of capacity of the practioner as I described earlier.