Jeff

Jesus asking the Father to forgive them is not about the pain that he was experiencing at the time. It was about forgiveness (in the world) itself. It goes to the "karmic" nature of what was happening. Described like this in the gospel of Thomas. 44. Jesus said, "Whoever blasphemes against the Father will be forgiven, and whoever blasphemes against the son will be forgiven, but whoever blasphemes against the holy spirit will not be forgiven, either on earth or in heaven."

Very true that it is difficult when in pain, but Buddha was very clear on the point... Free yourself from pleasure and pain. For in craving pleasure or in nursing pain There is only sorrow. Like nothing lest you lose it, Lest it bring you grief and fear. Go beyond likes and dislikes. From passion and desire, Sensuousness and lust, Arise grief and fear. Free yourself from attachment. -Dhammapada

I think the path (and realization of Jesus) fits very well with what is described in chapter 28 of the Tao Te Ching. Just a question of a specific block being carved, as compared to a general overview.

Agreed on more than the temporary form we call the body. From Chapter 45 of the Tao Te Ching... Resting still, the body is left in peace; great movement exhausts the body and fevers the mind. Stillness and tranquillity give a clear vision to the nature of all things.

I would have to disagree with you there.

I dont see it that way, but are you now saying that you don't think Jesus was an Immortal?

I think you may be missing my point. Man follows earth, earth follows heaven, heaven the Dao. It is about realizing the Dao, not being just focused on the body... Tao Te Ching - CHAPTER 13 Accept disgrace willingly. Accept misfortune as the human condition. What do I mean by "accept disgrace willingly?" Accept being unimportant. Do not be concerned with wealth, titles, loss or gain. If you are not concerned with these, you can always "accept disgrace willingly". What do I mean by "accept misfortune as the human condition?" Without a body, how could there be misfortune! For misfortune arises from having a body Surrender yourself humbly, then you can be trusted to care for all things. Love the world as your own self, then you can truly be trusted to care for all things. Focus on "healing" is not accepting or flowing with the Dao.

Why? You find the same in most traditions... Know that the body is a fragile jar, And make a castle of your mind. In every trial Let understanding fight for you To defend what you have won. For soon the body is discarded, Then what does it feel? A useless log of wood, it lies on the ground, Then what does it know? - Dhammapada

Actually, I thought Bindi brought up a very interesting point of thinking about Jesus as an immortal.

I am not at all dismissing that it is possible to heal the body, but the gospels are clear about moving beyond the earthly focus of the body... 2 Corinthians 5 King James Version (KJV) 5 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. 6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

I am not at all saying that Jesus was against the physical body. The physical body is part of the path, but focus on the physical body is a dead end in Jesus's teachings. As described in Romans... Romans 8:6-14 6For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. 12Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. 14For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. The whole point of Jesus's teachings (and becoming a son of God) is point out "ye are not in the flesh", but beyond that. Simply going around healing the flesh, simply reinforces the flesh point and is not the most effective method. That is why after his ascension, and his coming back to teach the apostles, they talk about having the power to use Jesus's name to "throw out demons" and stuff. It is about breaking down the "obstructions" that trap one to the local body mind. Clearing out those "demons" also, often leads to the body being healed, but that is a derivative result and not the goal itself.

The Kingdom of Heaven is not a death thing. It is about realizing that one is not limited or contained by the local body-mind. It is not a place you go... Luke 17: 20-21 20 Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, “The kingdom of God does not come with observation; 21 nor will they say, ‘See here!’ or ‘See there!’For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you.”

Yes, and this point highlights a very dramatic difference in understandings relative to what happens (and outcomes) at the higher levels of a tradition.

Yes, similar understandings, particularly at the beginning levels of the framework/tradition. Also, interesting about traditions that use alchemical compounds (drugs), or not. I think this is one of the major departures with the teachings of Jesus, and all of his reminding his followers of the body being a temple.

I think it is important to realize that the goal of Jesus was not to do miracles (or show it was possible), but to lead and teach people to be “one with God” (as John says, show people how to be a son of God). On that point, many others have come along and did what he did. What one would call healing is about the physical body, and as Jesus said, focusing on that leads to death and not the life everlasting.

Rather than actually borrow from each other, I think it is more about them all starting from noticing the same underlying “energy” body and then how it connects more broadly into the physical world and beyond. The difference in the broader view (or framework understanding) naturally leads to different outcomes.

Chapter 21 being false or meaningless? Could you explain what you mean by that comment?

Sublimation is simply spiritual bypassing. It is about clearing and balance, not forcing (grasping) something. From the TTC Chapter 64 ... Those who act defeat their own purpose; Those who grasp lose. The wise do not act and so are not defeated. They do not grasp and therefore do not lose. People usually fail when they are on the verge of success. So give as much care to the end as to the beginning; Then there will be no failure. Therefore the wise seek freedom from desire. They do not collect precious things. They learn not to hold on to ideas. They bring people back to what they have lost. They help the ten thousand things find their own nature, Yet they refrain from action. - Tsu, Lao. Tao Te Ching

Nothing is faster or more powerful than joint (working with a partner/master) purification.

Sure, there are many ways/paths that are about clearing out such desires. But, from your past posts in many threads your goal seems to be more about the opposite, almost more like wanting pushing your desires with power. Why do you want to avoid sex? Also, no interest in finding love with another person? And having truly loving sex?

It is happening because you are trying to bypass rather than clear the underlying desire. The energy will just spill out in other emotional forms.

With your posted quote, it sounds like he is mentally trying to force something (hence the sweating), and thus not "just sitting" (residing).

Here is my view on Chapter 37... The Dao is really everything combined with unlimited potential, and hence never really separate in any way. Man rarely realizes this, and so always struggles against the natural flow and balance. Hence his mind sees it like the world is against him when things happen to him. If he would just chill and reside with flow, everything would work out and be fine. It is because of all of his desires, that he creates imbalance, and suffering comes with it. If he could simply drop those desires, things would be simpler and fine. And without the mental angst of all those desire, the mind would be quiet, he would be at peace, and he would be filled up with free flowing energy. Being full of energy, all would be fine and go with the flow of the Dao.

If there is an American chakra, it is much more... Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness or in more simple terms... “Each of us deserves the freedom to pursue our own version of happiness. No one deserves to be bullied.” ― Barack Obama

Very well said. Thank you.