Jeff

I am stating that likes = desires, and dislikes = avoidance. Same "mental thing", just opposite ends of the spectrum. If someone is theoretically totally clear, there would be no preference and the decision would be more based upon utility/efficency. If someone disliked chocolate (or more likely the inverse and loved it), with mental clarity there would be more indifference. The same issue with a drug addict, with mental clarity the addiction would just naturally drop. If you see someone who is addicted in general, it means they have not realized (or gotten control of) their subconscious issues around that addiction.

A like or dislike is exactly the same as a "desire". Any preference or avoidance are in the same camp. If they have sharp likes/dislikes then they really have not given up anything. They are just pushing it back in their subconscious and it is avoiding the issue. Could call it spiritual bypassing if you want.

If you have likes or dislikes, then you have subscious processes that are whipsawing your mind back and forth. Habitual tendencies are a sign of lack of mental clarity. From Buddha in the Dhammapada... Like a hunted hare you run, The pursuer of desire pursued, Harried from life to life. O seeker! Give up desire, Shake off your chains. You have come out of the hollow Into the clearing. The clearing is empty.

Oh no... The Malcolm worship disease... I should have known...

I also get what CT is saying. It is also logically consistent with the concept of not being able to cross mindstreams or "directly" help others. Very interesting as it highlights some major differences between the concept of a buddha and an Immortal/Sage or Christ. Thank you everyone for the discussion.

So no response on how that application works with my stated example? I ask, because I am really trying understand the buddhist framework here. Are you saying that in the example of having the mental affliction of hating my child's killer, one has the right intellectual view (understanding) and contemplates that until all hate (and other negative emotions) are kind of burned/rooted out? What about all of the positive emotions then? And if there is such a thing as both positive and negative emotions in the first place, doesn't that imply a lot of mental judgement always going on?

Sounds very cool. How would you go about doing something like that?

Thanks for your response. Could you explain how that works with my stated example? Assume your response must mean that in your scenario you never actually forgive the person and just keep hating him? But the you stay mindful and calm in your hate of him and hence don't act on it?

Since you don’t seem to like Thomas Byrom’s version, let’s simply go with yours as to me they are basically the same. Let’s take a practical example... Let’s say that a drunk driver kills my child in an accident. Because of that, I now “hate” the drunk driver. In your terms, I have a mental affliction (the hate) and that affliction causes me to mentally suffer. The verse quoted states that I should drop such thoughts (let go/release) of hatred. Don’t hate that person, but experience non-hatred towards him. Now, at an actual world level, is that not exactly the same thing as “forgiving him”? I hated him and I now no longer hate him, hence forgave him. As I said earlier, two sides of the same coin...

It seems the Buddha in the dhammapadda agrees with you... "Look how he abused me and hurt me, How he threw me down and robbed me." Live with such thoughts and you live in hate. "Look how he abused me and hurt me, How he threw me down and robbed me." Abandon such thoughts, and live in love. In this world Hate never yet dispelled hate. Only love dispels hate. This is the law, Ancient and inexhaustible.

I dont see how the concept of sin relates to the forgiveness discussion. Also, forgiveness is not about the other person who has theoretically done some wrong. It is not some bounty that you give to the other person (or emotionally blackmail them with). Forgiveness is your own letting go of the issue that binds you to the karma. It is the active facing of the issue/karma and letting it go. Or like that quote stated, it is like compassion in (conscious) action. But, this is your thread, so I will let it go. Sorry to hear you will not forgive me for the intrusion.

Thanks. Yes, two sides of the same coin...

Then we are talking about different things. What you are describing is obviously not really forgiveness. Like I said before, forgiveness and letting go are two sides of the same coin. Your having leverage over others as some sort of emotional black mail has nothing to do with forgiveness. But, thanks for the discussion. I had never realized that buddhists never forgive or that it is not a part of the tradition. Would seem it be almost impossible to ever change karma at all if you never forgive or move on.

How is forgiveness "emotional blackmail"?

Tough world view if there is only karma and no forgiveness. Forgiveness is actually an extremely helpful key to changing those "reactive patterns" you are talking about...

Thanks for sharing and you raise a very important point. Letting go and forgiveness are really just two sides of the same coin.

Haha... I need a confused button as I don't understand what you and 3bob are even saying. Also, Mary Magdalene was not a prostitute. Even the Catholic Church admitted to making that up about 50 years ago.

Hi Stovepipe, What you are feeling now is actually very common for people when they first start to energetically connect more broadly to the world around them. You are just sort of stuck in kind of a receptive mode. Like taking stuff in, but not letting the balancing outflows back out. As the energy builds up, your mind translates into the visuals (and feelings) you are getting. Rather than worry about it, maybe try to relax into it and feel the underlying energy of it. Focus on your heart when stuff comes up and feel the pressure or vibrations on your body. It can seem very scary, but actually you are starting a very exciting phase. Best, Jeff

So if we are just having fun, some accurate information regarding God in christianity... It is all about love... John 1 - 4:7-9 7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. 8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love. 9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.

Welcome. AYP and the Tao Te Ching... Interesting combination. Look forward to your kundalini post.

This one can be a little challenging on its own, so I think it is helpful to give some more context from the gospels... Then began he to speak to the people this parable; A certain man planted a vineyard, and let it forth to husbandmen, and went into a far country for a long time. And at the season he sent a servant to the husbandmen, that they should give him of the fruit of the vineyard: but the husbandmen beat him, and sent him away empty. And again he sent another servant: and they beat him also, and entreated him shamefully, and sent him away empty. And again he sent a third: and they wounded him also, and cast him out. Then said the lord of the vineyard, What shall I do? I will send my beloved son: it may be they will reverence him when they see him. But when the husbandmen saw him, they reasoned among themselves, saying, This is the heir: come, let us kill him, that the inheritance may be ours. So they cast him out of the vineyard, and killed him. What therefore shall the lord of the vineyard do unto them? He shall come and destroy these husbandmen, and shall give the vineyard to others. And when they heard it, they said, God forbid. And he beheld them, and said, What is this then that is written, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner? Whosoever shall fall upon that stone shall be broken; but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder. And the chief priests and the scribes the same hour sought to lay hands on him; and they feared the people: for they perceived that he had spoken this parable against them. (Luke‬ ‭20‬:‭9-19‬ KJV

You are very welcome. Enjoy the party.

Totally agree with Steve.

Yes, he said... “Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid. Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house. Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven. Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.” ‭‭Matthew‬ ‭5:14-18‬ ‭KJV‬‬ But, as we see below in John (and many other places), that the “fulfillment” is a new and higher realization. Law (or rules) from Moses which is surpassed by the “grace and truth” from Jesus... “John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me. And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace. For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.” ‭‭John‬ ‭1:15-18‬ ‭KJV‬‬

That "burning and tightness" is how your mind is translating that feeling of trying to open your heart (space/chakra) more. Sort of like your subconscious translating it into something physical for you to notice. Very beautiful that you are working to help addicts, but when your heart starts to open like that, it is common to get caught up with other peoples stuff, which then sort of resonates with your own issues and fears. In more taoist terms, it is like the energy comes in and gets stuck, without the balancing transmission (or going back out). Yes, energy practices will help. But, things like playing with carefree little children or puppies/dogs, will help a lot too. It is more about sort of carefree giving/tranmission/playing then it is about "helping". Not really "doing", more like just simply residing and loving. Laugh at life and more importantly yourself. If you can laugh at yourself, then you can relax and love yourself too.