Jeff

Definitely different turnings can exist side by side, but to me a turning is much more than just a different approach. With a turning of the wheel, there is an actual "potential" that is changed. More like a software upgrade that allows new methods (for those with the potential to use them). When Buddha first "realized", the world was in the first turning. As he expanded/integrated into that realization while being in the world, he effectively raised human potential (or allowed for new methods) in the world. This greater "refinement" (or deeper) realization can be easily seen in the older Hinayana definition of a Buddha as compared to the Mahayana definition which now had a Buddha level and an Arahat level (which was the old Hinayana definition). For me, a turning is actually a shift in the world (or you could say in the potential). A coming Buddha actually opens new paths and deepens the refinement of what is. Bringing more of what was previously "formless" into manifest "form" for the world. A full Buddha brings new "light" in and upgrades the world system.

Ok, so you do not consider Dzogchen a turning of the wheel? Yogacara was the last (currently highest) turning in your view?

No, here is a fuller description of the text... Examination of the literature in Tibetan currently recently available reveals that the Dzogchen teaching existed in Tibet at least as early as the eighth century in both its great religious traditions: Buddhism and Bon. The Dzogchen of the Buddhist tradition derives from the teacher Garab Dorje of Oddiyana, a region that many scholars have identified as the Swat valley in Pakistan, once a flourishing center of Buddhism. The Dzogchen tantras and teachings he transmitted were subsequently introduced into Tibet during the first spread of Buddhism in the eighth century, and they still form part of the canon of the Nyingma or "ancient" tradition, the Nyingma Gyud Bum. Here is a similar description of the concept of things waiting until the world is ready for them... Yeshe Tsogyal wrote these oral instructions down in a secret code language called “dakini script” and concealed them as precious terma treasures to be revealed by tertons many centuries later. Guru Rinpoche himself predicted the arrival, names, and periods of the revealers. The teachings they would receive, in actuality or in visions, would be appropriate for the people in their own and in following generations. Almost every chapter in this book mentions that these teachings were given for the benefit of practitioners of future generations and includes the words: “May this meet with all worthy and destined people in the future! -Dakini Teachings

I think you are misunderstanding the nature or "how" of the transmissions from Buddha with regards to the turnings. Once again from Norbu... "The Dzogchen tantras and teachings he transmitted were subsequently introduced into Tibet during the first spread of Buddhism in the eighth century," - The Supreme Source Buddha "transmits" (or teachings are found) when the world is ready for them. Additionally, it should be remembered that these are not all "oral" transmissions with Buddha talking to someone. Many are "direct" transmissions from him beyond time and space.

Interesting topic, but Buddhist masters seem to be pretty clear on this point. As Norbu describes below... The third turning of the wheel of Dharma by Sakyamuni Buddha (following the first turning, based on the four noble truths, and the second turning, when he expounded the Prajnaparamita) embraces the sutras that expound the principle of tatliagatagarhha as the essence of enlightenment present in all beings. - The Supreme Source

I thought this was very interesting and very well written. It touches on the difference between the two traditions, and ultimately the meaning of the word "emptiness"... The primary difference is in the nature and implications of "non-dual".The puruṣa of Vedanta is "non-dual", however it is an ontological, transpersonal, homogenous, unconditioned existent. Which means that Advaita is a substantial and reductive non-duality.Whereas one's nature in Dzogchen is epistemic, personal, heterogeneous and free from the extremes of existence and non-existence. This means that one's nature in Dzogchen is insubstantial and a non-reductive non-duality.An ontological non-duality is where everything is reduced to a single substance that exists alone by itself. For example if subject and object were merged and we then held a view that the union of the two as a single X is truly substantial and valid.On the other hand, an epistemological non-duality is simply a recognition that the nature of phenomena is free from the dual extremes of existence and non-existence, hence "non-dual". This is a non-reductive non-duality because it does not leave anything in its wake, there is no X left over once the nature of phenomena is recognized. In epistemic non-duality the nature of a conditioned phenomenon [dharma] and its non-arisen nature [dharmatā] are ultimately neither the same nor different, hence they are "non-dual", because the misconception of a conditioned entity is a byproduct of ignorance, and therefore said entity has never truly come into existence in the first place. This means that the allegedly conditioned entity has truly been unconditioned from the very beginning. And to realize this fact only requires a cessation of cause for the arising of the misconception of a conditioned entity, i.e., a cessation of ignorance. If dharmins and dharmatā were not non-dual then it would be impossible to recognize the unborn nature of phenomena because that nature would be rendered another conditioned entity. https://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=21068#p307812

Moving on to Verse 52... 52. His disciples said to him, "Twenty-four prophets have spoken in Israel, and they all spoke of you." He said to them, "You have disregarded the living one who is in your presence, and have spoken of the dead."

While as I said earlier, the experience may be useful in opening things up a little, I think it is misleading to state any form of narcotic leads someone down the path Self enlightenment. Narcotics and their use effectively limit the level (or state) of potential mental clarity/consciousness that one can access. Ask any truly advanced spiritual practioner about their experience with things like cannabis (or mushrooms) and they will tell you how they just make your body feel heavy, weighed down unbalance the energy body. Yes, you may have a cool 3rd eye type experience and temporarily quiet a normally noisy mind a little, but it is no where near the same thing as true clarity.

I think once or twice can be eye opening for some with certain types of drugs. But, repeated usage just builds attachment and dependency. Also, any such substance inherently limits the relative depth of clarity of mind (or consciousness).

At a certain level it is inevitable (or natuarally happen). In particular, with the natural male-female energy dynamic. Could also, just be a special relationship in some way.

And maybe those higher frequencies as access them do the turning on of higher stuff?

Cool thought. Also, at a human level something like 94% of DNA has been declared "junk". Maybe it is just stuff that is not normally turned on yet?

The concept of how ego/self leads to mortal death is more than just an issue, as the gospel Romans 6 shows below... 5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. 12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. One must move beyond the body of flesh and find that "higher spirit". But, this is more about finding the kingdom of God, than the "new world".

To me it more saying that the basis for the new world is now laid down (or in process), but has not yet been "realized".

Working on phone, so thanks for the green. To me, the new world is different from the kingdom of heaven. As you can see from these words in verse 27, the world (or new world) are treated differently... "If you do not fast from the world, you will not find the (Father's) kingdom..." The new world is much more like as John describes in revelations 21. 1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. 5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Maybe we should move on. Any thoughts with this verse? 51. His disciples said to him, "When will the rest for the dead take place, and when will the new world come?" He said to them, "What you are looking forward to has come, but you don't know it."

It should be remembered that the concept of the Holy Trinity came much later than the gospel of Thomas (by a couple hundred years). I don't quite see how the father/son are against the Holy Spirit. Could you explain how you get that more? To me, the Holy Spirit is more like the motion aspect (or manifest) aspect of the father. The not forgiving part is more like when the TTC says that the Dao is ruthless. Try to go against the natural order and you get stomped on.

I think Dawei raises some good points drawing his comparison. But, for the context of motion and rest, it is important to understand the earlier part... "We have come from the light, from the place where the light came into being by itself, established [itself], and appeared in their image." Understand that we come from the light, that comes into being by itself and then established (or stabilized) itself. So since, Dawei already used the Buddhist reference, let's now use the Daoist. And instead say... "We have come from the One, from the place (Dao) where the One cam into being by itself and then established (itself), and (we likewise) appeared in their image" And then, it goes to basically, how can you prove that? Because we know that is the place where motion = rest and is also both. Motion is energy/light. Rest is perfect void. So we all came into being from the place where void=energy/light, and we call that place the Holy Father.

The insight into the steps/stages of these levels are better described when we get to chapter 28. But, you can sort of break them into these groupings... King/Sage - one has filled the three dantiens and the mind has quieted. In the TTC 28, this is called "knowing the strength of a man". One is like a king, as you have moved beyond fears and issues that can drag you down. Earth - This is also called being the "stream of the universe" in chapter 28. This stage feels sort of like you cease and the universe flows through you. Like you (local) mind shutdown and can't handle/comprehend these new and higher flows. Heaven - This is also known as the child (or golden child). In this stage, one is starting to increasing be one with all, but it is more like beings are felt inside of you (or your heart). Dwai touched on this point well in his recent ppf thread post. Dao - This is also called "valley of the universe" in chapter 28. Beyond the conceptualization of the mind, at a perceptional level, it is sort of like you are the universe, but also know there really is no such thing as the universe.

Hi Cheshire Cat, What exactly are you attempting to describe above? Your post references many different paragraphs, do they have something to do with the GOT in general, or anything to do with verse 50? Thanks, Jeff

Moving on to verse 50. It is one of my favorite, and to me very profound. Any thoughts? 50. Jesus said, "If they say to you, 'Where have you come from?' say to them, 'We have come from the light, from the place where the light came into being by itself, established [itself], and appeared in their image.' If they say to you, 'Is it you?' say, 'We are its children, and we are the chosen of the living Father.' If they ask you, 'What is the evidence of your Father in you?' say to them, 'It is motion and rest.'"

Some additional thoughts on chapter 25... Behind even the basis of heaven and earth, is the mother of all things. It is not simply the void, but more like the motion of the void. There is no need to try to name or conceptualize it, as it is beyond mind. Hence, some label it Dao, and think it great. Ever in motion, it flows like a river, creating all that we call the universe. But such a flowing is also like a loop (of transmission and reception), and so always returns, so can be found inside ourselves. There are four major levels of realization (and some would call them great). The first is king or Sage. The second is Sage who is one with earth. The third is realiazation of Heaven (also known as immortal) The fourth is the realization of the Dao (also known as realized immortal). But all of this is really just flowing the natural path of the mother of all things.

Chapter 24 seems pretty self explanatory... Balance yourself and your energies. Quiet your mind and your mouth will quiet with it. All followers of the Dao, know there is no point to self aggrandizement. Just chill, and reside.

Some thoughts on chapter 23... To quiet your mind is natural with the Dao. As an example, high winds naturally calm, and heavy rains stop, and the active mind with lots of talking should be like that. While heaven and earth are seen to be eternal, the things that they create are not. So how then is it possible for man to be like heaven and earth? He must follow the Dao, and become one with the Tao (like heaven and earth). He who follow the Dao is filled with energy/light. Those who do not, lose their way. We are what we experience, so it is best to experience the Dao. Experincing the Dao, is like the complete trust of a young child with a parent going on a trip. No fear, just the fun of exploration and new sights as you hold your parents hand...

For me chapter 22 seems pretty straight forward... Let go of all your issues, fears and crap; And you will be filled. Be driven by desires, and you will be confused. Hence, those who are wise embrace the One. Residing as the One, they are an example to all. They have no need to boast or brag, As the light of their clarity naturally shines out. Silent and radiating, they do not argue, so no one argues with them. These ancient masters were clear and empty, and therefore naturally filled as the Dao.