Jeff

Then how would you describe that difference that you perceive?

Non-duality is simply a word phrase, it can easily have different meanings to different people as CT has pointed out. Lightless light is also called "clear light" in many traditions. Clear light is a "state" of the One and to me would go perfectly with the concept of "one with no second". But, to me, that is not the same as zero.

Very good point. Another good point about how we all tend to reflect such views on the light of our own experiences. But, if one never examines their views in the light of other views, is there not the danger of never broadening the light of your own experiences? In my own experience, I often find a different perspective/view helpful in my own reflections.

With the above, it seems that is really not the case... Come on... Join the discussion... surely more interesting than another mopai debate or arguement about mods...

Ok, so Brahman is not "One without a second"?

Sorry, what did I misunderstand? You said... And... So what does that mean? Does the healer change something in the person that they are healing in some way? Is there some sort of transmission, or not?

So basically it is all simply psychosomatic? No such thing doctors doing anything? Also, praying is all really just a big mental trick? No such thing as a Miracle?

Your I-Ching quote seems to be saying more that when you are high up spiritually (on a mountain top), your transmissions are so powerful that even what you think of as "internal stuff" (like a deep sigh), is felt by all around you who are "lower than" you. Seems to be saying that there is transmission to others to me.

I will let them speak up on their own if they are interested. I did not mean to start ranking people, more just a statement that many are pretty advanced in their practices.

As I mentioned in the post, I was basing my comments on their ability to feel and manipulate energy. In particular, some of them can do it remotely over distance. Their experience is definitely beyond the classic "book reader" forum type.

Actually, I think we are very lucky to have a group of Admin and Moderators that are in general so spiritually advanced. They all seem to have a broader understanding and various levels/skills with energy. Many of them even have the ability to remotely project and share energy. Very cool stuff.

Maybe it is just some translation issue, but there is no "world to win", and through the world may have many power crazed re-nunciates, that has nothing to do with the teachings of Lao Zi and the Tao Te Ching. In his teachings, there is no toll to be paid to some super duper Brahman God type, no due to be given as a tax to the "One" which restricts access to the Dao unless you do. Things like this may exist in various Hindu traditions, but not in the TTC. In returning to the natural state, it is as the Tao Te Ching describes... CHAPTER 16 Empty the mind of everything, let it reside in peace. Being at peace you can watch the Ten Thousand Things rise and fall. They follow their natural path and eventually return to the source of all things. This is the way of Nature. Returning to the source is stillness, for Nature is unchanging. Knowing this constancy is having insight into all things. Not knowing this leads to disaster. Knowing the source, the mind is open. When the mind is open the heart will be open too. Being open hearted, you can act naturally. Acting naturally, you will be at one with the Dao. Being at one with the Dao, you will be at one with Heaven and Earth. Being at one with Heaven and Earth, you can become eternal. Although the body dies, the Dao will always be eternal.

CHAPTER 48 Man's great intelligence is acquired by his ability to learn. In following the Dao, everyday he must stop learning, and give up whatever he has been taught, until his mind is open and yielding. And so, his heart will also be. When he becomes full and likened to the Dao, he becomes in tune with the Ten Thousand Things. For they are all nearer to the Dao than man. When man goes back to his natural ways, he will also be in tune with the Dao. By doing nothing the World is ruled; everything is left to find its own path. In Daoism, nothing is paid, and no one (or supreme Brahman) to pay. You more let stuff go and flow naturally with the Dao.

Could you give some context to your statement? How does this relate to the Dao, or the One? Or where there is any concept of "paying" or "due" in the Tao Te Ching or some Taoist tradition? Again, I see how what you are saying with Hindu views, but just not any Taoist.

So good that I thought it was worth repeating...

Got it, so you are describing a Hindu view. I think chapter 21 or the Tao Te Ching more clearly describes the Taoist view on this point regarding your concept of the one and paying it's due... CHAPTER 21 The greatest virtue is to follow the Dao and only Dao. Oh unfathomable Dao, ever elusive and intangible. But yet within, there is substance and form. It is the essence of the Ten Thousand Things. This is very real, so here lies a true path to follow. It was there at the beginning, as it shall be at the end, Thus I know the ways of creation. There is no concept of paying some due to some Lord Brahma or Supreme Brahman (or "One").

How is this a daoist concept? The One does not own anything or have anything due to it. The one emerges from the Dao, but that is a perception all difference.

Nope

Very cool on your results with the experiment. I can definitely understand why it would be a little scary/concerning to try such an experiment. Just remember that it is your subconscious mind that is translating the energy that you are feeling. I just sort of helped with a little more "space" so that you could consciously perceive it. Most likely the uncomfortable stomach thing was your obstruction/issue/fear, and the pond of water was probably energy trapped (or not freely flowing) as water often symbolizes energy. Just let me know if you have any questions or I can help in any way. Best, Jeff

On this point, both the Tao Te Ching and I disagree with you (which is why it is differentiated in the TTC). But, I would agree that your view is consistent with the normal Hindu view, and since I just noticed this is a Hindu forum discussion, I will now bow out... Thanks for the discussion.

Given that it emerges from the Dao, the One (or layer of the One) is an object. But I would agree that the the Dao is not an object.

It is possible to simply be all objects, no subject necessary. Dao > One > Two > Three > 10,000 things. Only at the layers of Two, Three and 10,000 things is the concept of subject and object.

No worries, and yes many can feel my underlying energy. But, many can feel it at the energy level and not get caught up in the subconscious autopilot emotional response.

It is definitely a balance and I get what you mean by standing in both. The key is sort of seeing through the "emotional" aspects of it, and realizing the underlying energy structure. A perfect example is with anger... You can get caught up with it and have all types of autopilot subconscious responses... Or, see it rising, but not be able to help yourself... Or, catch yourself in the middle of it and think what am I doing... Or, catch it as it is happening and then reflect on what is the best action... Or, kind of laugh at yourself, and then just do what needs to be done... Or, ultimately... Just do what needs to be done...

Things like being pissed off are an excellent sign of being caught up in emotional and local body mind stuff.