Jeff

Clear away the obstructions and a Sage simply knows... CHAPTER 50 (SFH) Between birth and death, men live their lives in different ways. Some are followers of the Dao. Some are followers of the ways of mankind. Some are followers of greed and lust. Some are followers of evil. Why is this? Because man has sought to change things and interfere; so he has upset the balance within himself and others. The Sage knows this and rejects that. He knows of the ways of the Ten Thousand Things as well as man. Thus he can live in harmony with all things and all men. The tiger will not attack him, men will not seek to wound him and so he makes no room for death to enter.

I agree a sage is one with the Dao, and in no way am I taking about being a "super-man". But, the sage still chooses, his choice is just free in the moment as he is no longer whipsawed by autopilot responses from subconscious issues and fears that are found in the local body-mind. A Sage knows himself and others. A Sage cares for all beings.

We have discussed this point many times, but I think he is very clear about this point. In chapter 5, he clearly talks about a Sage "using" and able to manipulate the formless... Heaven and Earth are ruthless, They see the Ten Thousand Things as part of one whole. The wise are therefore ruthless, for they see people as part of the same structure. The space between Heaven and Earth is formless, but it has a form. For the Ten Thousand Things all depend upon it. Like this space, the Sage can use its formless qualities; for it yields to whatever, or whoever uses it. Hold fast to this and remain at one. Also, in chapter 12, he specifically talks about a Sage making individual choices... CHAPTER 12 The five colours blind the eye. The five tones deafen the ear. The five flavours dull the taste. For having in excess, dulls the senses. When the senses are dulled, men look for more stimulation. Racing and hunting fever the mind. Precious things cause greed to arise in Men's hearts. Therefore the Sage is guided by what he feels, and not by what he sees. He lets go of that and chooses this. There are also many other such references in the Tao Te Ching. In my view, Taoism does not really contain the cessation in Self concept of many Hindu traditions.

I think the Lao Tzu teaches something slightly different than that in the Tao Te Ching. One still chooses or does stuff, but one is unattached and aware, so free to respond naturally... CHAPTER 49 (SFH version) The Sage is at one with the Dao, his mind is open and uncluttered. He is aware of all things. By having an open mind, he can act naturally. And so he treats people and all things equally. Like the Dao, he shows no preference. The Sage appears quiet, humble and elusive. If men seek it in their hearts, they can find contentment by listening and watching the Sage.

Good point... Clarity brings knowing. But knowing is not the same as intellectual knowledge. Mental obstructions (of issues and fears) block direct knowing.

Yes, makes a lot of sense. Also, in group meditations it is possible to pick up stuff energetically from the rest of the group or some powerful "transmitter" in the group. That energy barrage can become the straw that breaks the camels back. Also, don't get me wrong... I am supportive of such retreats in general. Just a question of having qualified supervision.

I would agree. Shentong is for those who actually dive and explore...

Excellent overview. Thank you. Which way do you come out on it?

Because it is sort of a fundamental difference of view/approach. I think it was an important point for you to highlight.

I can see that, but just not 10 days of nothing but doing it...

I think this is a very important point.

I think people like her that are sort of stuck in "hyper receptive", should not be allowed to do something like a 10 day retreat. Or the leaders should be advanced enough to be able to shield (or provide space) for such people. Certainly, at least able to indentify the current energy status of the attendees.

If you first realize and then balance the male and female energy sides, lots of fun stuff happens...

Dang is the "light" that is perceived with the realization of emptiness. Or realizing "you are" the light. Rolpa is the energy/light that flows is found as creation. Or realizing "you are nothing and the light flows through". Tsal/tsel is the energy in creation (or in the world). The stuff that people play with in their body or mind. So, yes you are effectively correct. But rather than "due to karma", I would say more "obscured by karma". Also, karma is really just issues and fears at an individual level. Best, Jeff

Shaman Flowing Hands nails this one...

The "new" and greater realization has come. Forget the old stuff and how the Pharisees explain it. The teachings of Jesus are not the same as the Old Testament...

Ok. Enjoy your books.

Here is Buddha's view of things like body position and the "trap" it creates... When ideas of body, property and abode are seen, discriminated and cherished in what after all is nothing but what is conceived of the mind itself, and external world is perceived under the aspect of individuality and generality which, however, are not realities and, therefore, neither a gradual nor a simultaneous rising of things is possible. It is only when the mind-system comes into activity and discriminates the manifestations of mind that existence can be said to come into view. For these reasons, Mahamati, you must get rid of notions of graduation and simultaneity in the combination of casual activities. -Lankavatara Sutra

Yes, John the Baptist is an example of one who has all seven chakras open (and hence connected to the divine), but still "earthly". He had not yet fully realized the "kingdom of God" found within.

I guess I don't see the issue. In the verse, he states pretty clearly "whoever among you becomes a child will recognize", implying that it is open to any who realize what is inherently within you. As Jesus clearly states... Luke 17: 20-21 20 Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, “The kingdom of God does not come with observation; 21 nor will they say, ‘See here!’ or ‘See there!’For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you.” Also, I would say that Jesus clearly teaches something very different than what is found in the Old Testament. I much deeper level of realization, bringing the truth and not simply the "old laws".

Meaning that he is not so greatly beyond you that you can't look into his eyes (as an equal). In those times, lower status level people were not allowed to look directly at the nobility/lords.

Jesus was also physically born of a woman. What we are talking about is moving beyond the earthly body. The "child" being described is knowing you are not really of the physical body (as such an attachment is death).

I don't think he is making any such statement. The context and meaning of the statement "born of a woman" is significant as Jesus talks about two bodies, the earthly human and the one that is "born of the Holy Spirit". He is differentiating between the two. Here is a descriptor for you from the gospels... 1 Corinthians 3:16-17 16 Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are. 1 Corinthians 15:42-49 42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lordfrom heaven. 48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bearthe image of the heavenly Man.

Where do you get that from? I am not familar with such a concept in the teachings of Jesus.

Not an evolution at that point, more he is saying the John is not "realized" or yet a "son of God". John is the most powerful of teachers (human masters), residing at the soul, but not yet begun the higher differentiation. In Taoist terms you could say he was a sage, but not yet a realized immortal.