Jeff

Same with mine regarding the letting go of distractions and obstructions (and resting). So then do you also agree that the goal is to break down the obstructions that keep normal daily life from being the same as meditation? Is that not like I said earlier simply an obscured perspective/view? If so, I guess I don't understand how what you are saying is not the same as what I said.

Sounds like we need to just keep moving them to the Jeff pile. Let me decide...

Ok, I get it. But, as I stated in the text above, you are all of it. No need to separate or try to deny part of it. Merge it all in.

Shows what concentrated energy can do...

Ok, now I understand. You are talking about the "goal of buddhism". Yes, I totally agree that I have not been talking about buddhism. This topic is about merging and guru yoga, so if you are only talking about a buddhist framework, then it would probably not work that way. But, if you read my earlier response to Steve's comment, I am talking about other traditions where it does fit and make sense. Is not the goal of buddhism to not eliminate the difference between states of meditation and normal daily living? Make them all the same. Or after you realize your goal, are there still all of the separated states of mind where you go into and out of meditation?

This part of 3 was really my point.... that everything is already of your own nature (empty), and hence not different/not separate from you. Or, all such perceived separation is simply an illusion of mind. Cut through it and then you are at what I would call that first stage (or what many traditions call enlightenment). Thanks.

I did not understand what you meant, so I specifically asked for clarification. Nothing to contemplate in the absence of thought. Simply reside. Now Steve did post something to contemplate (and I did), and responded.

Sorry, but now I am even more confused. Was this made as a response to me, or some response to some old interaction with Jonesboy? Your use of my phrase of "normal daily living" implies it might have been, but I have no idea what you are talking about.

How is "our relationship to the ground and thought", different than the "ground and thought itself"? You are all of it. The perceived difference (or separation) is why there is a difference between meditation and normal daily living. And, I would agree that once they are the same, that would be the classical definition of being enlightened in most traditions. But, that is really just a starting point beyond the local body mind in a tradition like Kashmir Shaivism (and others). That next phase is the fundamental difference of KS and more classical hindu traditions. In Taoism, it is the difference from going from being a "stream of the universe" to becoming a "valley of the universe" (as found in the TTC chapter 28).

Sorry, but what does that mean? What do you consider quite misleading?

Yes, there is no separation between the ground and the thought itself. Any such perceived separation is an illusion of the mind itself. Just like when people think that meditation is somehow different than normal daily living, it is not, just a perceived illusion of different “states”.

Pretty much all spiritual traditions ask you to move beyond such views that you are implying of good and bad. But, you did not respond to the point of my post, additionally you only copied a small part of my post to create a misleading view (seemly imply that I am somehow racist) of my point/position. My point was about open spiritual discussions, obviously there should be a non-racist policy with posts (and I believe that has always been the case with the moderating team). Why not simply stop the political stuff and move the focus back to spiritual discussions (without a voting litmus test). Each post (if somehow racist) can be dealt with through moderation. What are you attempting to stop?

The last few years have seen this site go increasingly more political, and further moving away from spiritual topics. Discussions around things pro or anti trump have dominated the site, and to see this change has saddened me with the increasing polarity of the membership. I have not participated in those topics as I dont care, and there is no point as no one ever really changes their views. But, such an exclusion statement, just makes the matter worse and further locks this site into a political format, and mostly forgoing the possibility of free and open Taoist/spiritual discourse. The simple fix rather than banning or asking members to leave would have been to simply eliminate all political trump like discussions. There are endless number of sites to vote pro or con trump, but very few for free and open spiritual discussion. Now it seems that one more such site has been dropped from the world, leaving us with nothing but more increasing political polarity. Spiritual traditions are about moving beyond such dualistic views into greater clarity or oneness. Telling half the world to pack up and leave does not make the world a better place, it simple increases the framework of hostility and war.

Very, very well said. And worth repeating.

Mystical Christianity is taught by a teacher, and not really a book thing, as it is all about learning to control the underlying energy flows (similar to tantric buddhism). If you are looking for a book to read on the topic, maybe take a look at Tau Malichi’s “Gnosis of a Cosmic Christ”. He is one of the few people out there writing books that knows what he is talking about. The challenge with all such approaches is that one must have first opened their heart for them to have much actual meaning/value. With that opening, one begins to have conscious access to their own flows. Later one can connect/integrate more with their environment.

That “polarity” combined with the perpetual yab yum (energy flow between the poles) is the underlying dynamic that helps everyone sort of wash away the impurities.

My background is more in mystical Christianity (or what I would call the “Christ” tradition). In the more institutional christianity view, the tantric aspects would be more called the power of the Holy Spirit. As Jesus stated in the gospels... John 14:10-17 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works. 11 Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves. 12 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father. 13 And whatever you ask in My name, that I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If you askanything in My name, I will do it.15 “If you love Me, keepMy commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.

If one is Muslim or Christian there are other (similar) methods.

I think it is much more about the ability to surrender/trust/let go than it is about previously having a sufficiently elevated perception.

Yes, in Daoism, there are different types and levels of immortals.

It is not really relevant to a "buddha" themself. What I was attempting to describe is really more the extended range of sort of "pre-buddha". In old sutra views, with there concept of an Arahat, there was no powerful Bodhisattva (like your original quote) concept. In later Yana's they become more like "immortals" that can help others.

Basically, the overall concept is sort of like Buddha’s live/reside in buddhaland, where everyone ultimately (past, present & future) is ultimately a buddha. Kind of like a buddha sees and relates to you in your “perfection”, rather than the detail level of normal existence. This difference of perspective (and that there is the potential to help others) is part of the shift from the older sutra concept of an Arhat. It is sort of like the higher the Buddhist Yana, the more potential (or tools) to help others. These greater tools are why often Dzogchen Buddha’s are described as vastly more powerful than the old Arahats.

I would agree more with CT on this point. Your quote is talking about bodhisattvas, and a bodhisattva while “great” and helping, is not fully clear, so the range of their knowing can be spectacular, but there is still some level of obscuration. A “full” buddha has cleared all such obscurations, and hence sees all other beings as Buddha’s themselves. In a way, it is kind of like they move beyond/lose/give up such differentiation that would allow for the mind viewing of your quote. This is also why bodhisattvas are kind of like the ones who hold the gate, or stay back to help. Often sutra describes them as waiting to be the last to cross over as part of their commitment to all other sentient beings.

All active discussions with disagreement on the bums can get messy. Even though TI and I would disagree on various topics, I miss him here at the bums. He would always research his positions and supporting logic for them. Always an interesting discussion.

Sure. There is always the potential that there is something deeper than what you perceive.