Jeff

Here is how I would translate those four types... those who from light, end up in light - those who realize their primordial basis/beginning and return to it (know where they come from). those who from darkness, end up in darkness - those who are obscured (caught up in issues and fears) and stay that way. Could also be described as focused on the world. those who from light, end up in darkness - those who realize (or have a taste), but cannot (or don't want to) move beyond the worldly stuff. those who from darkness, end up in light - if you believe that you come from darkness (obscured world) and end up in the light, then it is a "false" light, as one has not realized their primordial purity. This is sort of saying that one does not "rise up", but more clears away stuff.

Here is the Christian version of the same concept, from the Gospel of Thomas... 50. Jesus said, "If they say to you, 'Where have you come from?' say to them, 'We have come from the light, from the place where the light came into being by itself, established [itself], and appeared in their image.' If they say to you, 'Is it you?' say, 'We are its children, and we are the chosen of the living Father.' If they ask you, 'What is the evidence of your Father in you?' say to them, 'It is motion and rest.'" The "darkness" is not about personal difficulty in one's life. The darkness is more like the issues and fears of the world. It is kind of like saying our primordial state is "clear light".

I think the meaning fits, but hard to see him actually using a phrase like saints and sinners. Sort of like translating it within a Christian framework.

To me, being part of the overall structure would have the same meaning as a straw dog. A straw dog is not a real dog and something that one "sees through" as having no separate or independent status.

Then maybe my confusion is in the word "locally". Also, to me a forest is far more than simply a collection of trees. It is ecosystem of interaction. An ecosystem can have its own level a karma, that does not just reside in the individual trees...

Same for me.

So you don't see that a group or even a society can have (joint/interrelated) karma?

That is also called "possession" in many cultures/traditions. Any such a "doing" is based upon some fear/desire. Definitely karma stuff with such activity.

Not sure there is a local approach, but here is my view... Karma is stored issues, fears and obstructions and tends to drive autopilot like responses to things. That autopilot response system is like the classical physics of motion...A body in motion, stays in motion. That motion can carry across what you might call "lives". Emptiness is not the same as what many call the void. Emptiness is more like the Void with motion of that void. That motion/movement could also be called "infinite potential".

I think there may be some confusion on what (buddhist) emptiness is or is not. It is not really step, but more like a quantum shift. The ultimate realization of emptiness would translate to "being the valley of the universe" in Taoism. There is no such thing as a body (or dying) with the realization of emptiness, so if one continues on the next step would be "returning to the state of the uncarved block". The state of the uncarved block has no attachment to form.

I think this a very challenging topic as they all don't say the same thing. Additionally, with the different things they say, their definitions of enlightenment are all very different. If you want to define the word enlightenment, you need to pick a tradition and it's framework.

Everyone notice the shift? Polarities of the "two" expanded. Feel the shift in the strength of the energy flows. Or the depth of your meditation...

An immortal is one with the Dao. The dao cannot be named. In manifestion you may get a name to attach to form.

Depends on your tradition or how it would be described. In taoism, you might say that the "one" has expanded (or become more refined), and hence the polarity of the two is greater. Or, you could also describe it as there is now more energy activity (and potential) in the "space" between heaven and earth. Or, if you prefer a more fun description, you could simply say that an "immortal" is descending/manifesting at "earthly" levels.

You may even notice that your astral stuff is easier now too.

So in Vedanta, is there such a thing as "aha" or experience of Self (temporary)? Or would such experiences be considered something else (like maybe a chakra opening), and the practioner kind of misunderstanding the aha event?

Chapter 56 in full context... Those who know do not talk. Those who talk do not know. Close your mouth. Guard your senses. Temper your sharpness. Simplify your problems. Mask your brightness. Be at one with the dust of the earth. This is primal union. Those who have achieved this state Do not distinguish between friends and enemies, Between good and harm, between honor and disgrace. This is the highest state of being. To me, the "talking/not talking" in the broader context is about using the mind and thinking too much. Quiet it all and be like the dust of the earth (fully grounded). As the verse says, this is the primal union...

To me, chapter 5 says... Heaven and Earth are impartial and see through the concept of individual nature, with all things being part of a greater integrated structure. A Sage is wise and sees all people as part of that same integrated structure. The difference between heaven and earth is formless (like the air between too sides of a bellows). But, this formless space, also has form in a way, as it is the underlying energy/light; And the greater the movement of it, the greater the manifest potential. Talking and thinking about it is of no value, One should simply be and reside in this underlying energy/light (center of the bellows).

I think that in verse 153, you may want to consider that the house is the local body-mind (not just the body). Additionally, in the Indian traditions of his time, one searched for the "ultimate Self" that one would cease into. One would use mantra and practices to clear the mind until that ultimate Self is realized. In 154, he is saying that he has seen (or seen through) that concept of ultimate Self, and that happens when one have let go of all desires, attachments, and sees through the conditioned beliefs of the mind. The Lankavatara sutra gives greater details and describes it like this... "When earnest disciples have gotten rid of all their evil habit-energy and been able to realise the twofold egolessness, then they will not be intoxicated by the bliss of the Samadhis and will be awakened into the super-realm of the good non-outflowings. Being awakened into the realm of the good non-outflowings, they will be able to gather up all the requisities for the attainment of Noble Wisdom which is beyond conception and is of sovereing power. But really, Mahamati, there are no vehicles, and so i speak of the One Vehicle. Mahamati, the full recognition of the One Vehicle has never been attained by either earnest disciples, masters, or even by the great Brahma; it has been attained only by the Tathagatas themselves."

Interesting quote from the gospels, but I don't see how it quite fits the discussion.

My experience has been that practice naturally clears away what had been obscuring the knowledge. Or, I never truly understood the text, until I had personally experienced/realized what it was talking about.

Is there not also danger with such knowledge? Like you have a predefined/expected answer, and so the you fit it to the situation/experience.

I would suggest that you consider editing this post. Telling another member (even in a made up story) that they have their head up their ass is a little beyond the limit. Even for an enlightened guru type...

There is no Buddhist "I am" realization. Additionally, there is no I am in the Hindu realization of Self.

Interesting, with your forum name I would have thought you would have been familiar with the TTC. In general, maybe think of the opening of the heart as when one first starts to move beyond personal/individual desires. The compassion that you described becomes like a basis for being able to drop things like fear and anger. It is the beginning of shifting the focus from "me" to "others", and with that shift the body-mind starts to become less ego based. In spiritual terms, it is kind of like you start with only room for yourself in your heart (self interest). Then with it opening a little you have room for family members and children. Then the people more broadly around you. At the higher levels there is so much room, it is like the entire universe can be found inside it. That point is what some traditions may call universal compassion/love. Energetic expansion and refinement matches that growth.