Jeff

I don't see how Paul is disagreeing with the teachings of Jesus at all... “Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves. No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.” ‭‭John‬ ‭6:43-44‬ ‭KJV‬‬ Combined that with... “Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.” ‭‭John‬ ‭14:6-7‬ ‭KJV‬‬ Hence Jesus is saying that no one makes it to the "father" without the "grace of the father" (hath sent me draw him).

But efforts only take you to the door, they do not get you through it... “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.” ‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭2:8-9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Ahhh... I am not sure that one can find Divine without a little help from the Divine...

As he said, the greatest miracle of all is when a yogi can lead someone to God/divine.

I am definitely not saying that no effort is being promoted as the path/approach in the New Testament. I only stated that relative to the later or higher states and describing the contrast point with my discussion with 3bob.

What you call gender complete is only a part of verse 22. Additionally, Jesus is very clear about "sharing the power" and not being the only one as you can see in his following words... John 14:10-13 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works. 11 Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves. 12 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father. He specifically states that you can do greater works that Jesus did. Simple believe/know Jesus's teachings and you will also be one with the Father. Or as Roman 8 says... 14For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. 15For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:17And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. A son of God is a "joint-heir with Christ" and hence can do even greater works than Jesus. We are all (or have the potential to be) one in Christ. Similar to the concept that everyone is a potential Buddha.

I am not sure where you are getting your concepts regarding the relationship between the Father and the "children". Jesus says nothing like what you are describing. He is actually very clear in saying the opposite... John 5:20-23 20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel. 21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will. 22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: 23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him. Or Gospel of Thomas 2. Jesus said, "Those who seek should not stop seeking until they find. When they find, they will be disturbed. When they are disturbed, they will marvel, and will reign over all. [And after they have reigned they will rest.]" On your criteria for being (or realizing one is) a "child of God", there are many descriptions and pointers in the gospels. But it is basically that one realizes that they are "one with the father". Here is something you might find useful... 22. Jesus saw some babies nursing. He said to his disciples, "These nursing babies are like those who enter the (Father's) kingdom." They said to him, "Then shall we enter the (Father's) kingdom as babies?" Jesus said to them, "When you make the two into one, and when you make the inner like the outer and the outer like the inner, and the upper like the lower, and when you make male and female into a single one, so that the male will not be male nor the female be female, when you make eyes in place of an eye, a hand in place of a hand, a foot in place of a foot, an image in place of an image, then you will enter [the kingdom]." ...And be a Son (child) of God. Psalm 82: 5-6 5 They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course. 6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

War? Can you be more specific? Or do you mean just in general with the old corrupt ways of the established church/religion which tries to hide the key to the "kingdom of God"?

Ok... Mathew 5:38-45 38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: This is the old law of the Old Testament. With the coming of Jesus, there is a new realization/understanding. 39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. One should not fight, but accept and let go. 40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also. And if anyone wants to use the old testament stuff (law) to attack you, don't worry about it. Let him have it. 41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain. And if any continue to pressure/attack, do not try to hide from or avoid it, but continue on facing, accepting and letting go. 42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away. And to any who ask you for help, give it to him. 43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. More old testament stuff, that is not accurate with the new realization of Jesus. 44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; Love everyone no matter what... 45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. Because a "child of God" is beyond good and bad, attachment and avoidance and the natural compassion shines through on all (like the sun and the rain).

Actually, I think it is saying much more that. With statements like... 42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away. Jesus is saying that for "children of God" it is natural to actively help others.

I think if you look at the entire section of the gospel in context you will get the rest of it... Mathew 5:38-45 38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: 39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also. 41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain. 42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away. 43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. 44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. The "children of God" do not get attached and differentiate. The sun shines on all.

Totally agree. But, I would also say that if one learns to continue to "discern" at the higher realization (move beyond just bliss) that the compassion naturally flows through as CT described in an earlier post.

I don't quite see it that way. More like treat everyone fair and equally at a society level. If you make some people more important than others, people become jealous. If you set up a class structure, people will get caught up in it and there will never be peace. It is more stating that "When action is pure and selfless everything settles into its own perfect place" and that a sage can help teach and lead by example.

I would agree that your quoted text makes a lot sense. Maybe think about it like your "local mind" is a subset of universal mind and universal mind is the same as "ultimate reality". A divine being "exists" as a being in universal mind that you can "map to" as a form based in your local mind. Connecting or merging with that divine being helps to breakdown the bubble of local mind so that you can realize that you were always really also universal mind/ultimate reality. Such practices work much better with the support of a guru/master as the master already has access to aspects of universal mind. Hence the "knowing" of the master shared in your local mind space helps to form a bridge across the local bubble space.

I guess I am not really sure what you were asking in the above post. Turn the other cheek had been what I meant with the earlier post about not being attached and letting things go. As an example, if someone insults you, and it hurts, causing you to respond it shows that one is attached to the underlying issue. That response (either conscious or subconscious) is effort. If the insult just passes through since there is no attachment to the issue, it would be no effort. More broadly related to the thread discussion on Self realization, the corresponding difference would be saying that one is so blissed out that they don't even realized that someone was trying to insult them, as compared to knowing that someone was trying to insult them, but since there was no underlying issue/fear to stick to, there is no insult felt. As Jesus says, one just naturally (no effort) turns the other cheek. Or if it makes sense in the situation, even walks a mile or gives a coat (supports) that person.

I would say that "resist not evil" is like saying "accept it all", the verse then goes on to say that you should let stuff go too and not be attached to it...

Beating, denying and rejecting work...?

With your secret level, would you agree that while residing in the "mandala of pervasive great bliss", one is still able to differentiate and hence has compassion for others?

Ok. Thanks. I get what you are saying with the relative levels. Also, I think at a relative level buddhism has the same reincarnation concept that most Hindu traditions do. The difference to me is more found in the definition of "nirvana" or the nature of realization. By full shutdown, I mean what neti-neti is describing... Total unawareness. Shutdown and completely gone. In Buddhism, Daoism, Kashmir Shivaism and Mystical Christianity that is seen more as an intermediate state, before one has relearned to differentiate at what you could say is the higher level (of Self). This is why there is the Zen quote of, first there is a mountain, then no mountain, and then a mountain again. The mountain is the ability to differentiate. Since one is now all of Self, but still able to differentiate, one has natural compassion for others. This differentiation point is also why buddhas are said to have three bodies. The dharmakaya is sort of like shutdown Self level, while the Sambkogakaya and Nirmankaya are bodies that work inside the system to help sentient beings. So the text I posted is kind of like saying, don't just stop and hit the complete shutdown, but continue on to further differentiate again so you can help all of those sentient beings realize for themselves.

Yes, I know in your tradition there is only cessation. But, for the rest of us... Having attained this exalted and blissful state of realisation as far as it can be attained by disciples, the Bodhisattva must not give himself up to the enjoyment of its bliss, for that would mean cessation, but should think compassionately of other beings and keep ever fresh his original vows; he should never let himself rest nor exert himself in the bliss of the Samadhis. But, Mahamati, as earnest disciples go on trying to advance on the path that leads to full realisation. -Lankavatara Sutra Or if you prefer Taoism... Being the valley of the universe, Ever true and resourceful, Return to the state of the uncarved block. When the block is carved, it becomes useful. When the sage uses it, he becomes the ruler. Thus, "A great tailor cuts little." TTC - Chapter 28

Ok. Thanks. What you are describing here is not the classic Self framework. Is there some broader Brahman thing that everything is inside of? And does each person have their own discrete Shiviac Entites and domain, or is each domain like a separate universe? How is a Self different than your Shiviac Entities and domain? On cease, it means the complete shutdown at all levels. Which is what I think others have been saying happens in this thread.

Agreed. But in that true being, one becomes aware of "all", and hence naturally wants to help "others". It is more like the opposite of everything just shutting down.

I am not trying to disagree with your regarding Sri Nisargadatta, I was just trying to figure out how you differentiate between the two. In general, I would agree that there is a lot of "grade inflation" with spiritual stuff. So, I assume with your gospel quote, you would say that the proof is in the pudding(living)? And if so, is that proof in how the world judges people, or maybe instead in how many people that person helps to realize the truth? As an example, someone can be very saintly when doing nothing and just sitting on a rock.

Your choice. You can "cease" if you want, but some prefer to continue on to help others (Buddha/Christ/Ruler Immortal). The virtual machine can overlay the main machine. Realize that it is not really separate or virtual. Also the main machine is not some brain dead thing, it is fully aware...

Yes, they are all labels, they just label different "things" or relative depth of perception.