Jeff

Not sure I would quite agree with your analogy as with a computer the host machine would be aware of the virtual machines activity and be able to track the data flows.

Ok. Got it. So Sri Nisargadatta is not enlightened in your book. So how do you know that Ramana is? How do you know that he was not simply "deluded by ego" too? Just not stuck in some zombie like state?

I think you are missing the point of this passage (or it is just a really bad translation). There is no "oneself" in Buddhism. That is why the words talk about evil and defiled, purity and impurity... Those are concepts of the mind. And yes... If you believe that you are a separate impure and evil oneself (ego based), than no one can help you...

I am not saying who is enlightened and who is not, but... Like Spotless says, I do not see your logic here at all. You could also just as easily say that Ramana was stuck in a deluded belief that he was "done". He had just stopped moving forward, while Sir Nisargadatta was more honest and continued to deepen into his realization.

While I agree with your point in general, there is no abidence in the Self for a Buddha...

Very bold statement...

Sutra quote? This is describing very early stage stuff as he is talking about body sensations. It is way before the "cessation of the mind system" and not realization/Buddhahood. Also, notice at the end how the sutra says that "they must be anxious to learn" to reach the "very topmost height". As one becomes a Buddha, all other Buddhas are seen as overlapping (or a subset of) themselves. It is the same concept as I described earlier regarding a "son of God".

Just look at all buddhist "completion stage" practices. They are all about drawing upon the support of past Buddhas. "When true egolessness of things and persons is understood, discrimination ceases to assert itself; the lower mind-system ceases to fuction; the various Bodhisattva stages are followed one after another; the Bodhisattva is able to utter his ten inexhaustible vows and is anointed by all the Buddhas." -Lankavatara sutra

Excellent point.

As your question asked... The western tradition.

I have only given you quotes and not playing any game of dual or nondual. Buddha also realized such, and hence there are also infinite Buddhas...

Sorry, not familiar with it. Some tradition you practice or follow?

The smoker smokes. The thought is there or there would be no smoking. It is the same with anger. The angry person just gets angry, they do not notice the subconscious response that made them angry in the first place. Diving deeper one can find the energy flow that has not yet made it to conscious aspects of mind.

if you believe it, then I am sure that if probably does apply to you. But, for the rest of us... 3. Jesus said, "If your leaders say to you, 'Look, the (Father's) kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the (Father's) kingdom is within you and it is outside you. When you know yourselves, then you will be known, and you will understand that you are children of the living Father. But if you do not know yourselves, then you live in poverty, and you are the poverty." - Gospel of Thomas (Mark Foote - This quote is showing that believing that realms or even the kingdom of God is beyond you like 3bob is trying to state with his law, is incorrect. We are all everything itself. Basically, like saying that we are all Buddha when you clear away the crap. The key is to just "know yourself".)

Thought about going back and editing, but that would seem to be even more confusing. In my original post to 3bob, I quoted... Matthew 21:21-22 21Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done. 22And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive. What Jesus is saying that when you are beyond doubt (and hence mind stuff, perfect clarity - son of God) you can do stuff, including help others like Jetsun described in his earlier post about Amma. The gospels describe this as being "joint heirs" in Christ. Romans 8 14For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. 15For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:17And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. That glorification is summed up well in the gospel of Thomas... 2. Jesus said, "Those who seek should not stop seeking until they find. When they find, they will be disturbed. When they are disturbed, they will marvel, and will reign over all. [And after they have reigned they will rest.]" The "reign over all" is the joint heir with Christ of a son of God. Or if you prefer something from the Old Testament... Psalms 82:5-6 5They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course. 6I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High. That make sense now? Also, see the difference of view from what 3bob was describing related to Self?

Good to know, as I guess I thought they were self evident. Can you give an example of one that you found confusing? Then maybe I could better explain it or give more context?

Agreed. Just took out one quote and left the response.

Good point. Since there is not the interest, I will edit my earlier posts appropriately.

That is not what Jesus is describing.

For that you would only have to wipe out all "free will". Make everyone just a drone of the mother ship...

Since you have been quoting the Bible lately, I thought you might enjoy this verse... Matthew 21:21-22 21Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done. 22And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.

Self inquiry is a game that the ego/mind likes to play. Jetsun has some very good advice here...

There is no hacking and there is no swift blow. As Dwai wisely states, there is only "being" or not. With being, vasanas just fade away...

Now this is true wisdom...

Beyond awareness, there is a nondual "state"... A wise one not aware of his thoughts (or habitual actions I guess)... These quotes sum our divergent views well. The fact that vasanas do "fade away" when they have a "complete lack of power" is exactly what I have been saying from the beginning. The problem is when they obviously do not have a complete lack of power, and they stay resolutely in place... Thanks again for the discussion.