Jeff

Yes, I would agree with the point that what needs to be investigated is "who you are"... It is your "null and void" point where there is the disagreement. While all that appears (or is heard with your quote) in consciousness, such consciousness is reflection (or translation) in mind. Dive as deep as you want into your Self consciousness, and I can still find your differentiated signature of primordial being. Buddha would describe it like this... When this active effort at mental concentration is succesful it is followed by a more passive, receptive state of Samadhi in which the earnest disciple will enter into the blissful abode of Noble Wisdom and experience its consumations in the transformations of Samapatti. This is an earnest disciple's first experience of the exalted state of realisation, but as yet there is no discarding of habit-energy nor escaping from the transformation of death. Having attained this exalted and blissful state of realisation as far as it can be attained by disciples, the Bodhisattva must not give himself up to the enjoyment of its bliss, for that would mean cessation, but should think compassionately of other beings and keep ever fresh his original vows; he should never let himself rest nor exert himself in the bliss of the Samadhis. But, Mahamati, as earnest disciples go on trying to advance on the path that leads to full realisation. There is one danger against which they must be on their guard. Disciples may not appreciate that the mind-system, because of its accumulated habit-energy, goes on fuctioning, more or less unconsciously, as long as they live. They may sometimes think that they can expedite the attainment of their goal of tranquilisation by entirely supressing the activities of the mind-system. This is a mistake, for even if the activities of the mind are supressed, the mind will still go on fuctioning because the seeds of habit-energy will still remain in it. What they think is extinction of mind, is really the non-fuctioning of the mind's external world to which they are no longer attached. That is, the goal if tranquilisation is to be reached not by supressing all mind activity but by getting rid of discriminations and attachments. -Lankavatara sutra Need to drop those pesky vasanas...

Your posts 74 & 78 presuppose there being a "Self" and also a "Jiva", there are no such "things" in other traditions. You are effectively stating that since all "independent beings" are really just really just remote drones of the mother ship, it doesn't matter the specific form of the remote drone as it will cease anyways. Vasanas dropping or not is very relevant as it directly relates to possible delusion and being trapped in samsara. As an example, let assume that you are correct and there is a universal God/Self. Then let us say you are a habitual drug addict who gets great pleasure from taking all of your drugs. That is gives you a bliss like experience of seeing and knowing God. Hence, you always need and want your drugs. Since you are always high on your drugs, everything is always perfect. But what happens, when you stop taking your drugs? Was it real or an artificial bubble of illusion? If there is no problem with "good" vasanas, why would there logically be an issue with "bad" vasanas? Additionally, does not even the separation of their being good or vasanas itself imply relative duality?

The differences towards ongoing vasanas being ok or not? It is based upon Dwai's repeated quotes in this thread and my above quotes from Buddha in the dhammapada.

While everyone knows that I have a (mystical) Christian background, I would agree with Spotless. The only historical reference from the time period is actually around the killing of John the Baptist. There is no direct historical documentation of the existence of Jesus.

Haha... Oh well... I tried. One teachers says ongoing vasanas are fine, you are still enlightened. The other says they drop. But, this also seems to potentially explain the descriptional differences between a Jivanmukta as compared to a great bodhisattva. Thanks again for the discussion.

The challenge with your definition goes to what may be subconscious level thoughts, not yet noticed by the conscious mind. Like... I need to have another cigarette...

Yes, we have done something similar before. My point was to simply to point out that the views were different. Hopefully, you can agree with me that Ramana is saying something different than what Buddha is saying about various vasanas continuing? About whether the desires/habits of the body quiet or not?

It seems to me that you are stating some sort of separation between the mind and the body. That the mind can be free (fully realized Self), but the body just continues on its own merry way of attachements (like smoking and drug addiction) and none of that matters. But to me, "latent tendencies" are subconscious desires that keep the loop going. It is the basic definition of perpetuating the same karmic issues that existed in the first place. Body-mind is all the same thing (or one integrated whole). Either way, this point seems to very well highlight a major difference between different traditions as Buddha is very, very clear on this point... You do not what you should. You do what you should not. You are reckless, and desire grows. But the master is wakeful. He watches his body. In all his actions he discriminates, And he becomes pure. Also... Do your work. Make an end of sorrow. For see how the jasmine Releases and lets fall Its withered flowers. Let fall wilfulness and hatred. Are you quiet? Quieten your body. Quieten your mind. You want nothing. Your words are still. You are still. Also... It is time to arise. So arise! Lest through irresolution and idleness You lose the way. Master your words. Master your thoughts. Never allow your body to do harm. Follow these three roads with purity And you will find yourself upon the one way, The way of wisdom. -Dhammapada,

In the context of the discussion, if one is beyond the "body-mind addictive tendencies" than why does the addictive behavior (like chain smoking) continue? The ongoing chain smoking itself would seem to prove that one is not beyond body-mind addictive tendencies. Dwai's quotes seem to more be saying that pleasure addictive tendencies are fine, but suffering based ones drop. But, the nature of suffering is when you lose the pleasure, you suffer...

Having a high capacity for drugs, is not quiet the same thing as we are discussing. Many drug addicts have extremely high capacity for drugs, the question is can they let go and walk alway from their addiction. In my view a habit is a compulsion of the mind. It is just a subconscious one, that the person with the compulsion has not yet reached the depth of noticing. With your logic a jivanamukta could also be a habitual child pornographer.

I guess I just don't understand your comment here. Could you explain what you are trying to say? Thanks.

I agree that this is pretty basic... Drop desires and simply live you life (fill your belly). I would agree that it would be more interesting to discuss (and potentially disagree) with the deeper meaning interpreting the TTC, than debating the actual words of the various translations. I think all of us bring unique insights based upon experience that add color and depth.

So then are you saying that it is possible to be a drug addict or an alcoholic and still be a realized jivanmukta?

Very good point. It wasn't me, the Self made me do it...

Yes, but that is not really seeing things from a different view... That is just trying to overlay your view on others...

Welcome

With the ..., did you mean that some people that you know and trust have seen your master physically teleport?

And you have seen him teleport? Or, maybe I should say... seen it when the Self has moved the jivamukta to another physical location?

So would you say that constantly residing in the witness (or perfect patience) is what you would call a jivamukta? Also, with your master taking his time and responding to your questions, it was not really your master responding to you, but instead the Self flowing through your master since he was only watching?

So does that mean that when you follow your loop and return to society, "you" are no longer there? You don't interact with any of those people in society? You make no decisions or choices with the people you interact with?

I understand what you are saying, but you are not really responding to my question... So with the above are you simply disagreeing with the Papaji quote? That there is no need to clear the vasanas? That one need do nothing? That your "resting in the witness by the grace of my Master", was not temporary, but a permanent Self realization for you?

Actually, I think we can learn a lot from the different views of various traditions. Like looking at a mountain from different angles. I certainly have no disagreement with you using bible quotes and think your first one did partially support your posted point.

Yes, but is this your natural being or a temporary state like Bindi's quote was describing... "Many people have had temporary glimpses of the Self. Sometimes it happens spontaneously, and it is not uncommon for it to happen in the presence of a realised Master. After these temporary glimpses, the experience goes away because there are still thoughts and latent desires which have not been extinguished. The Self will only accept, consume and totally destroy a mind that is totally free from vasanas. (Papaji in Nothing Ever Happened, vol. 3, p. 405) [Though this is rather at odds with his ususal prescription.]" My point is really to further define your and Bindi's (what I would consider different) points.

Is there such a thing as a mind totally free of vasanas? Is there no "grace" of God/Self? Your Papaji quote seems to say that even the latent desire to extinguish your thoughts in the first place, dooms you to never realize the Self.

If one is resting in the witness, how do you know that there are still many subconscious issues (or as bindi's post pointed out, many vasanas) still hanging around under the surface? If there is no "doing", how does one ever find such subconscious issue and fears? As they say, it is easy to be an enlightened guru sitting on a mountain top with people serving you, but a little harder when you are interacting with a spouse, children and coworkers? Or just being stuck in bad traffic...