Jeff

Would not the Sage just know and do, no thought about it...

This is also an excellent description (in Taoist terms) of what happens with all guru/deity practices. Thank you for sharing the wisdom.

Very beautiful. Thank you

On the energy or quiet mind (and concerns around somehow hurting yourself), maybe think about it as kind of opposite sides of the spectrum. With feeling energy as more heart based and mental clarity being more mind based on the two sides. While at higher levels, it is realized that they are both two sides of the same coin, people generally have a natural leaning one way or the other. It is this natural leaning that can cause people to resonate with different types of paths.

Rather than a ring, I would suggest a special gem... Now the daughter of Sâgara, the Nâga-king, had at the time a gem which in value outweighed the whole universe. That gem the daughter of Sâgara, the Naga-king, presented to the Lord, and the Lord graciously accepted it. Then the daughter of Sâgara, the Nâga-king, said to the Bodhisattva Pragñâkûta and the senior priest Sariputra: Has the Lord readily accepted the gem I presented him or has he not? The senior priest answered: As soon as it was presented by thee, so soon it was accepted by the Lord. The daughter of Sâgara, the Nâga-king, replied: If I were endowed with magic power, brother Sariputra, I should sooner have arrived at supreme, perfect enlightenment, and there would have been none to receive this gem. - Lotus Sutra

Hi Juan, I see abosulting nothing wrong with asking questions and looking for answers. Also, to me sharing actual personal experience is more useful than debating the meaning of an old book. Specifically, my liking of the post regarding mixing and matching yidam stuff, relates to the perspective that in my opinion most people have a mistaken understanding about true deity practices. Translations tell people to visualize some being like it is some imaginary mental process, rather than actually connecting to the being. In actual deity practices, it is more like the energy of the being manifests in your local mind space. Any seeing or image should be more an arising as your mind tends to naturally give form to the overwhelming energy flows. The challenge is that people attempt such activities without the support of a guru/teacher when they do not yet have the mental clarity to actually do such practices. Also, always feel free to ask me to try again if you find my descriptions confusing. Best, Jeff

This above is sort of my point. It is when you begin to let go of the logic of the self, that the grace of the A-ha moments shines through. Additionally, I would argue that the knowledge becomes more of a locked in mind set and the conditioned self tends to stick such grace into the framework that it is already comfortable with; that logic of the self fights all the way...

Thanks. But, I would have to disagree. The nature of such logic of the self tends to hide the escape of the self. Only when one surrenders or let's go of such self logic does such a gate even have the potential of existing.

Very interesting point, what gate does logic take you to?

On the "obscured blob of light", I think we are talking about different things. The blob of light was only meant as an example to differentiate between chakras as being points (to be connected). With the light I was attempting to describe, there is nothing to "see" or a different reference point looking at the crown chakra. It is much more about "being" than "seeing". If one is seeing something like that, it is a translation in the "local mind" and is perceived as separate (dualistic). But, I would agree that seeing every chakra as sort of a different dimension (or layer) of perceived reality makes a lot of sense.

As Dwai described, I think my attempted point is being lost in my quotes. I am not trying to debate your pursuit for ultimate truth, only sharing my (lazy) view on the matter. Here is how I would put my last quote in my own words... People are really not limited to their local body-mind. It is more like perceived reality is the obscured view of a local mind that extends to universal or shared mind. True realization is not about "seeing" and finding cool stuff and abilities in deeper aspects of universal mind, it is more about "being" all of it.

Continuing... Yes, on the spin feeling/direction of chakras. But, I think it is important that chakras are really only a learned mental map. That is why different traditions all have a totally different number of chakras, primarily dependent if you are focusing on the body or more mental layers. For me, it is more like we are all obscured blobs of "light". First you clear the blob of stuff so that you notice the underlying light, then you go on to expand the blob to include the entire universe. Maybe think of your "black hole" in your chakra concept as like finding the underlying light that I am trying to describe. And as you have pointed out with your "connecting the dots" of MCO, that being like connecting the chakras all into one big energy body "blob". Also, I would personally suggest to not worry about specific connections, like above, maybe instead think about it like you are trying to connect all of the dots. It is the "stuff" that separates the dots that are the obscurations in the first place. The "goal" is more like perfectly clear energy flow though your entire body. Or if you have experienced a "heart orgasm" with your partner, think of it more like a full body heart orgasm.

I am not buddhist or selling anything, but I would essentially agree with the quote. Additionally, you need to remember that that the text is a translation of something written many hundreds of years ago. Very few people were capable of reading it (hence, no advertisement) and it was really just a text for an advanced memember of a tradition or school. Maybe think of it more like an originally oral tradition saying something like.... this is really important. Pay attention...

Maybe think of it like you are both naturally balancing each other to the depth of your openness and capacity. The "two" becoming the "one". Also, ultimately distance is a totally meaningless concept regarding the connection. It is only the "belief" in your mind that creates the obstruction from being able to do it with any distance. As you have described, energy follows your focus/attention/awareness. What you call "firing" is probably more you noticing the flow of you energy caused by your own attention. Yes, on putting your focus outside of your body. But there are sort of like two types of it. With "astral" stuff, you are sort of seeing it and maiming the sense of individual body-mind, rather than as you described as "being there". The deeper level is as you have found with your partner, it is more like "being one with". It is more like you break down the local mind view that you are limited to your current body-mind. As you clear out the obstructions, you realize that you are also the other stuff. As you have pointed out, this is what many traditions call the "outside is the same as the inside". Sort of like your body is like a mapping to the universe itself. The rest in a bit...

No, it really isn't from my point of view. The issue is that such a "transcendental truth" is of the mind. And, what we are attempting to describe is beyond the mind. Hopefully, these words on the things to be observed from "Dakini Teachings" by Padmasamhava highlight the point... 7. Realize that sentient beings, from the moment they are experienced, do not possess any true existence and therefore that samsara is the primordial purity of nonarising and does not have to be abandoned. 8. Realize that everything experienced as kayas and wisdoms is contained within your mind and therefore that buddhahood is beyond being accomplished.

From your same link... Moving beyond individual desires, goals and self... 6. The Perfection of Wisdom (Prajna Paramita) This paramita is the enlightened quality of transcendental wisdom, insight, and the perfection of understanding. The essence of this paramita is the supreme wisdom, the highest understanding that living beings can attain – beyond words and completely free from the limitation of mere ideas, concepts, or intellectual knowledge. Beyond the limited confines of intellectual and conceptual states of mind, we experience the awakened heart-mind of wisdom and compassion – prajna paramita. Prajna paramita is the supreme wisdom (prajna) that knows emptiness (shunyata) and the interconnectedness of all things. This flawless wisdom eliminates all false and distorted views of the absolute. We see the essential nature of reality with utmost clarity; our perception goes beyond the illusive and deceptive veils of material existence. With the perfection of wisdom, we develop the ability to recognise the truth behind the temporary display of all appearances. Prajna paramita is a result of contemplation, meditation, and rightly understanding the nature of reality. Ultimately, the full realisation of prajna paramita is that we are not simply a separate self trying to do good. Rather, virtuously serving the welfare of all beings is simply a natural expression of the awakening heart. We realise that the one serving, the one being served, and the compassionate action of service, are all the same totality – there is no separate ego or self to be found in any of these. With this supreme wisdom, we go beyond acceptance and rejection, hope and fear, dualistic thoughts, and ego-clinging. We completely dissolve all these notions, realising everything as a transparent display of the primordial truth. If our ego is attached even to the disciplines of these paramitas, this is incorrect perception and we are merely going from one extreme to another. In order to free ourselves from these extremes, we must release our ego attachment and dissolve all dualistic concepts with the insight of supreme wisdom. This wisdom transforms the other five paramitas into their transcendental state as well. Only the illumination of supreme wisdom makes this possible.

Well said.

Sounds like a nice story about Buddha. I just tend to prefer sutra that is attributed to the direct sayings of Buddha. Is you point around his "determination" or his "space-like concentration"?

Even though all of the books talk about mind based visualization, that is only a small part of it. The important part is building the energetic connection to the Yidam. Abhinavagupta (Kashmir Shivaism) states... "He attains the potency of the mantra whose nature is the Heart because if the efficacy of the method of worship, either by himself, because of his own superiority and difference, or because of the lotus flower of the clear and gracious speech of the lord guru. This is state of liberation while still alive." Also... "These same divinities are likewise to be worshipped and "practiced" in one's own body. By whatever object of practice, whether it be the appeased form which is to be obtained by means of the consciousness in the Heart, one obtains Siva in his quiescent, appeased condition like an ocean without waves." -Triadic Heart of Siva

The challenge with the purely physiological theory is when you reach the point that you can directly effect others remotely... No, it is not about visualizing or trying to move your view as in things like astral projection. It is more about "being" than "thinking or seeing". One sort of expands beyond the human body-mind and starts to directly connect/integrate with the world around them. Kind of moving beyond self into ultimate reality more broadly. Pushing and yielding is sort of a physical layer aspect of what I mean by transmission and reception. Maybe think of it like a pendulum swinging between two ends/polarities. The greater the swing range, the less friction (issues and fears) and more powerful swings (energy flow). Yes, I was describing the same concept of inner sex. My point is that if you dive deeper into each "chakra", you will find that they have their own polarities and so you get the same but a more refined "pleasure" without going cross chakras. Instead of polarities, some people would describe it as spin direction, because they are focused on a particular male or female side. By self limiting, I mean that the mind tends to stay in a rut. Having outside connections or friends help you expand into new territory. Like if you have a deep subconscious fear of something, your mind will naturally avoid it and you are less likely to deal with it. But talking with a friend can help force the issue and free it up. Actually, I think you will find that most traditions focus on dual practice at the higher levels. That dual may be with a guru or a divine being. Most deity practices are more guru system based. It is really about finding a teacher that becomes important. A loving mortal partner is a great way to go. You are blessed to have one...

Juan - Agree on the topic... On conscious as compared to subconscious... Why don't we simplify it to something that happens within your mental control and something that does not. Like typing to me is conscious, but your heart beat is subconscious (or beyond most peoples control). Regarding your broader point on polarities at each chakra level, I would agree with that point. Additionally, there is obvious mental sexual "translation" for many with the energy flows both between separate people, and also found within your own "internal" polarities, and you can definitely call that something like "bliss". I would just say that you are not really feeling the energy flow, but more feel the energy "hitting" things (issues and fears) as it flows. Those are the energy structures that I meant. Maybe think of it like a grid with an origin and horizontal and vertical directions with the grid. The vertical direction is increasingly higher chakras, and the horizontal (+ and -) is the natural male and female polarities. As you go "higher" than the 7 chakras you start getting into more divine stuff. As you expand more horizontally (beyond normal human stuff), male and female become more about transmission and reception. This is the "two" that come from the "one" in the TTC. The bliss that you describe is felt with the energy flowing back and forth between your own polarities. While this feels great (and I agree the mind loves it), to me it is somewhat self limiting on its own, because there is not the natural expansion force of pulling further apart those polarities. The local mind just sort of enjoys the party in its own bubble of self. It is through interactions with others that the system gets stressed and expanded. Or you could say it is easy to be an enlightened/blissed out yogi on a mountain top, but go out in the real work, have a job, get married with kids and see how enlightened you are... This beyond local self polarity stretching is why many traditions say you need a guru or to have a form of Yidam/Deity worship. Merging with a deity sort of pulls you higher, while working with a dakini form helps pull you wider across the horizontal. The point is described here... Lady Tsogyal asked the master: Why is it important to practice the yidam deity? The master replied: It is essential to practice a yidam deity because through that you will attain siddhis, your obstacles will be removed, you will obtain powers, receive blessings, and give rise to realization. Since all these qualities result from practicing the yidam deity, then without the yidam deity you will just be an ordinary person. By practicing the yidam deity you attain the siddhis, so the yidam deity is essential. padmasambhava guru Rinpoche (2013-12-01). Dakini Teachings. Best, Jeff

I would agree that post seems to be over the edge. I would suggest you report it for mod review.

Thanks for responding. I have had some experience with Hathor and also a little with Ra, that is why I asked. Welcome to the bums.

How about... quiet the mind of personal desires so that you can feel the natural flow of your soul and align with spirit...?

In this context, maybe think of Dharma as like the natural order of the universe. It is sort of like saying, go with the natural flow. To me, the quoted verse is very "Taoist" (one of the reasons I posted it).