Jeff

I think if you look at verse 39, you will see a different view than describing emptiness regarding the valley (spirit). The valley is part of the "one". It is full and never runs dry... Tao Te Ching - Lao Tzu - chapter 39 These things from ancient times arise from one: The sky is whole and clear. The earth is whole and firm. The spirit is whole and strong. The valley is whole and full. The ten thousand things are whole and alive. Kings and lords are whole and the country is upright. All these are in virtue of wholeness. The clarity of the sky prevents it falling. The firmness of the earth prevents it splitting. The strength of the spirit prevents it being used up. The fullness of the valley prevents it running dry. The growth of the ten thousand things prevents them dying out. The leadership of kings and lords prevents the downfall of the country. Therefore the humble is the root of the noble. The low is the foundation of the high. Princes and lords consider themselves "orphaned," "widowed," and "worthless." Do they not depend on being humble? Too much success is not an advantage. Do not tinkle like jade Or clatter like stone chimes. -(translation by Gia-fu Feng and Jane English)

Interesting point that is raised... Does one need to leave behind family and friends to find the Valley Spirit? (also, feel free to delete this if you did not want such discussion in your thread)

I agree, theories are just theories. I was just presenting the most recent theories of modern physics. But, if you have not read about it yet and are interested in the topic, I would highly recommend reading about Higg's particles (or Higg's fields). Mass/matter and energy are literally created from nothing. If that doesn't give everyone pause regarding the illusion of reality, I don't know what would...

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2011/10/111004-nobel-prize-physics-universe-expansion-what-is-dark-energy-science/ New Nobel laureates Saul Perlmutter and Adam Riess of the U.S. and Brian Schmidt of Australia contributed to the discovery that the universe is not only expanding but also speeding up. The finding led to the now widely accepted theory of dark energy, a mysterious force that repels gravity. Measurements show that dark energy accounts for about 74 percent of the substance of the universe. But more than a decade after the Nobel-worthy find, scientists are still trying to pin down exactly what dark energy is and and thus solve what some experts call "the most profound problem" in modern physics. (Also see "New Galaxy Maps to Help Find Dark Energy Proof?") Does Gravity Work Differently? Until dark energy, physicists were convinced that gravity should be causing the expansion rate of the universe to slow. "When I throw my keys up in the air, the gravity of the Earth makes them slow down and return to me," said Mario Livio, a theoretical physicist at the Space Telescope Science Institute (STScI) in Maryland, said during the Decade of Dark Energy Symposium, held in 2008. But by studying the light from distant supernovae, astronomers saw that the supernovae's host galaxies are flying away from each other at increasing speed. The observation that the universe's expansion rate is actually speeding up, Livio said, is as if "the keys suddenly went straight up toward the ceiling." So far, one of the biggest challenges for dark energy researchers is marrying observations to theory. "We have two known, totally unsatisfactory explanations," said Michael Turner, a cosmologist at the University of Chicago. One possibility is there is no dark energy, and gravity works differently than scientists think. (See "Dark Energy's Demise? New Theory Doesn't Use the Force.") But "physicists are conservative. We don't want to throw away our theory of gravity when we might be able to patch it up," Nobel co-winner Riess, an STScI cosmologist, told National Geographic News. "Basically it all comes down to the fact that there's one relatively simple equation we work with to describe the universe," Riess said. "Because we see this extra effect, we can either blame it on the left-hand side of the equation and say we don't understand gravity, or we can blame it on the right-hand side and say there's this extra stuff." Dark Energy a Product of Quantum Vacuum? The extra stuff—and a leading contender for explaining dark energy—is quantum vacuum energy. The idea is tied to quantum mechanics, which predicts that even in the vacuum of space, particles are constantly winking in and out of existence, generating energy. ..... The "dark energy" is currently seen to be a constant as the universe continues to accelerate its expansion. Additionally, anyone who is interested the winking in and out of particles into the universe should just search on a Higg's Field (or particles). This creation from nothing has been verified over the last couple years.

"The accelerated expansion was discovered in 1998, when two independent projects, the Supernova Cosmology Project and the High-Z Supernova Search Team simultaneously obtained results suggesting an acceleration in the expansion of the universe by using distant type Ia supernovae as standard candles.[4][5][6] The discovery was unexpected, cosmologists at the time expecting a deceleration in the expansion of the universe, and amounts to the realization that the universe is currently in a "dark-energy-dominated era". Three members of these two groups have subsequently been awarded Nobel Prizes for their discovery.[7] Confirmatory evidence has been found in baryon acoustic oscillations and other new results about the clustering of galaxies. In June 2016, NASA and ESA scientists reported that the universe was found to be expanding 5% to 9% faster than thought earlier, based on studies using the Hubble Space Telescope." https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accelerating_expansion_of_the_universe

Very interesting stuff. But I think if you look at some of the more recent developments regarding the perception of the universe, you will see that it is not only expanding, but the rate of expansion is accelerating (rather than stagnant or dying. So by the laws of thermodynamics, it implies that there must be energy being poured into the system (universe) from somewhere.

With something like deity practice, I think "visualize" is a problematic English word to use to describe it. For one who has truly experienced a guru (connection), a better way to describe it would be more like "merge or be one with". It is not about local mind imagining, more like being one with in universal (or shared) mind. That is why in earlier traditions one would first learn to perfectly quiet the mind first (prelimary practices), before even considering deity practices. If one is actually doing deity/yidam practice, you will easily realize the difference. For Star Trek fans, think of the difference between conentual impulse and warp engines...

Nope. Not at all. The visualization is more of building connection beyond the local body mind that helps to break down the local sense of self (ego). The resulting increased "clarity" helps one to realize the natural buddha that was always really there "underneath".

Not as simple visualizations. But if one has actually been introduced (or tossed into) what Dzogchen practitioners call rigpa, they are very meaningful. The issue is that most don't realize that level and hence the visualizations are only local mind imagining stuff. In more classical buddhism, these types of things would be completion stage practices. Only done after one was stable in "quiet mind".

I was not really trying to defend the structure and framework of Tantric buddhist traditions. Just more responding to the question regarding how access to things like higher chakras are supported in the framework. Here is another specific example... Lady Tsogyal asked the master: Concerning the inner way of taking refuge, which trainings does one need to practice? The master replied: There are eight trainings. First there are the three special trainings. 1. Having taken refuge in the guru, you should not feel ill will toward him or even the intention to deride him. 2. Having taken refuge in the yidam, you should not interrupt the meditation of the yidam’s form or its recitation. 3. Having taken refuge in the dakini, you should not break the periodical offering days. The five general trainings are the following. 1. Consecrate as nectar, the first part of whatever you eat or drink. Offer it visualizing the guru above your head. Offer it, visualizing the yidam in your heart center and the dakini in your navel center. You should train in partaking of food in this way. 2. In whichever direction you go, supplicate the guru, yidam, and dakini. Visualize the guru above the crown of your head. Visualize yourself as the yidam and visualize the dakini and the Dharma protectors as your escorts. This is the training in walking. 3. Even at the cost of your life or limb, you should train in regarding the guru to be as dear as your heart, the yidam as dear as your eyes, and the dakini as dear as your body. 4. No matter what happens, such as sickness, difficulty or ease, joy or sorrow, you should train in supplicating the guru, making offerings to the yidam, and giving feasts and torma to the dakini. Other than that, you should not pursue other means such as soothsaying and shamanistic rituals. 5. Recollecting the virtues of the guru, yidam, and dakini, you should take refuge again and again. By taking refuge in the guru, obstacles are cleared away. By taking refuge in the yidam, the body of mahamudra will be attained. By taking refuge in the dakini, you will receive the siddhis. padmasambhava guru Rinpoche (2013-12-01). Dakini Teachings. Rangjung Yeshe Publications. These higher level practices and the associated visualizations hit what would be the crown and 3rd eye in other traditions. Additionally, people seem to often underestimate the importance the "taking refuge in the dakini" point as how it relates to siddhis (of a buddha)...

I think you find more of that level of stuff happening with things like deity yoga. In other traditions that would be like connecting and activating the 3rd eye.

In some ways I think it actually can get harder as you get closer. Often start to develop sort of a spiritual ego...

I think this is an interesting point regarding various traditions. They mostly all have an overall framework that come with it. I think the big issues is that many have at the basis some type of "guru" or "divine" relationship. These relationships to be effective require one to surrender/submit in some form. Can one realize beyond the ego on their own? Or does it become easier when one finds a framework to let go of the ego based control? In the TTC it is about surrendering to or accepting the Tao (or natural flow). Easier to surrender to a specific being (or form), that a more vague universal concept?

Sounds a lot like verse 40 to me, just seen from the opposite perspective...

I would point to a similar theme in the earlier verses... 10. Jesus said, "I have cast fire upon the world, and look, I'm guarding it until it blazes." 32. Jesus said, "A city built on a high hill and fortified cannot fall, nor can it be hidden." 34. Jesus said, "If a blind person leads a blind person, both of them will fall into a hole."

Lady Tsogyal said: Emaho, great Master! I request from you the oral instructions on the practice of the deity with attributes. Since one does not attain the siddhis without relying on the yidam deity, how should we practice a yidam deity? padmasambhava guru Rinpoche (2013-12-01). Dakini Teachings.

Yes, there a major difference, though most of it is phycological and how one perceives it. If you ground to yourself, subconsciously you are limiting to your own capacity of "local self". If you ground to earth below you, your grounding capacity is the earth itself, and hence bigger than yourself.

Hi Seeker1, Thanks for sharing your powerful story. Is it ok if I sort of remotely energetically scan you? See if I can find anything or make any suggestions? Best, Jeff

What do you think these quotes are point to? Or specifically mean? Thanks.

Hi Labria, Most such advanced systems are teacher/guru based. Are you looking to do stuff on your own from a book (like AYP)? The challenge becomes that without a teacher, one can easily misunderstand various things. While I am not an AYP practioner, I am familiar with the system and have had many discussions with Yogani a few years back suggesting some additions/changes. Best, Jeff

Thank you for response. So are you saying that in your view (or tradition) it is not possible for a sage to share the Tao (energetically radiating or presence) other than to show by example of a life like American Indians? Also, why do you think an immortal would come to you and ask you to call him by a name other than you had been originally praying to? Would that not instead be calling a different being or spirit in your mind?

Thanks for sharing. Any specific Taoist text that describes that a sage can share tao energy with the world?

Flowing hands, To you, was Lao Shi an immortal who took form as a human, or was he a human that became an immortal? Also, the TTC states the following... To become a good teacher always use the Dao first, if this doesn't succeed, words must be used. When words are used great confusion can arise, thats why the Ancient Masters offered the Dao and said little. This statement seems to imply for those with the capacity, there is a better teaching method beyond words. Additionally, a sage is stated to be filled with "silence and peace". So, what do you consider to be the better method of teaching? And, could it be the direct sharing of this "silence and peace" that fills a sage? Or could "use the Dao first" mean something about the underlying energy of the Universe? Thanks.

Two years does not seem to be that long of time to work with any tradition. Did you receive direct introduction from a qualified teacher/master? Also, did that validate your thogal visions? ​Reside in Rigpa? Thanks.

Don't know how to specifically describe it in Taoist terms, but you started to open your crown at a deeper subconscious level. Sort of like you are starting to receive stuff there, but not yet consciously transmit.