Jeff

Think of it like a cool new movie coming. Interested and excited to see what happens at the end, but remember it is just a movie.

Maybe start your own thread and describe what powers/skills you and your master have and can demonstrate? Then forum members can directly compare.

Sorry, don't have a PDF for it. Only an old small book that a friend gave me. But, if you google the tittle I am sure you can find something. Or, maybe some other member knows where it can be found as a PDF.

Karl, take a look at your above opening statement. You are basically saying that you are not reading the words with an open mind, but in particular you are reading them with a built in prejudice of what you think they say based on your belief system around stoic philosophy. Please just read the book and what it says, not what some book reviewer said it says. Your analogy is exactly the problem. You are mixing food and wine, and then trying to say what you like after it is already digested. When you go for a wine tasting, you clean your palate. You have some water or maybe a piece of white bread to clear your mouth of other distractions. Then the wine (or words) can be tested on its own for smell and taste. It is simple, just taste the wine... Don't get caught up in the preconceptions of a what goes with some full meal...

He is simply stating that some things are beyond your control... Do you control all? Have full control of the universe? "Happiness and freedom begin with a clear understanding of one principle: Some things are within our control, and some things are not. It is only after you have faced up to this fundamental rule and learned to distinguish between what you can and can't control that inner tranquility and outer effectiveness become possible." Also, he is completely opposed to your position on being apathetic... “Now is the time to get serious about living your ideals. How long can you afford to put off who you really want to be? Your nobler self cannot wait any longer. Put your principles into practice – now. Stop the excuses and the procrastination. This is your life! You aren’t a child anymore. The sooner you set yourself to your spiritual program, the happier you will be. The longer you wait, the more you’ll be vulnerable to mediocrity and feel filled with shame and regret, because you know you are capable of better. From this instant on, vow to stop disappointing yourself. Separate yourself from the mob. Decide to be extraordinary and do what you need to do – now.” Finally, one last one specifically related to our discussion... "It is impossible for anyone to begin to learn that which he thinks he already knows." - EPICTETUS, Discourses

Karl, I have provided specific counter points to your position in the actual writings of Epictetus and you have provided no such quotes to support what you are saying. Additionally, in your posts, you are making generic statements about "stoics" and some determinism regarding God. Why not simply actually read the words in "The Art of Living" and not bring some generic prejudice to a discussion about the book? I am not a stoic or prejudiced to think that way... I am just one who likes the book and would recommend everyone read it impartially with an open mind... Regards, Jeff

Where are you getting this "cutting off your head or getting stabbed in the heart" and saying it doesn't effect you stuff with Epictetus? He is much more about doing your best, whatever the situation may be... More like accept reality and don't give up... “A half-hearted spirit has no power. Tentative efforts lead to tentative outcomes. Average people enter into their endeavors headlong and without care.” “Although we can’t control which roles are assigned to us, it must be our business to act our given role as best we possibly can and to refrain from complaining about it. Where ever you find yourself and in whatever circumstances, give an impeccable performance.” More on the point of dealing with the realities of life... “We cannot choose our external circumstances, but we can always choose how we respond to them.” Never give up... “Every difficulty in life presents us with an opportunity to turn inward and to invoke our own submerged inner resources. The trials we endure can and should introduce us to our strengths.”

Karl - Have you read the book? His words speak differently... “Nothing truly stops you. Nothing truly holds you back. For your own will is always within your control. Sickness may challenge your body. But are you merely your body? Lameness may impede your legs. But your are not merely your legs. Your will is bigger than your legs. Your will needn’t be affected by an incident unless you let it.”

His wisdom speaks best with his own simple words... “To know that you do not know and to be willing to admit that you do not know without sheepishly apologizing is real strength and sets the stage for learning and progress in any endeavor.”

Yes, a simple and elegant book. Possible to read it at many levels...

Glad it makes sense, you are blessed to have such divine inspiration and help. A little more describing what you are saying for the broader group. Abhinavagupta explains... "The tantric practitioner who has penetrated into the heart whose essence is pure existence and potency, who because of the particular efficacy of the practice of the ritual adoration is capable of remembering perfectly the "mantra" thus attains to a very high degree the potency of the "mantra" which is the reality known as the Heart. by the particular efficacy of the ritual of adoration he crosses over completely, either by himself or as the result of the clear and pristine lotus-word of the teacher, and obtains the power of the "mantra", whose essential characteristic is the Heart, and in this way he attains liberation in this very life." The ritual of adoration also relates to your two visiting friends.

For those who may be interested, the great master Ahbinagupta (Kashmir Shaivism) describes his tradition's view on the topic... "The initiated one knows this supreme knowledge characterized by the Heart and which is given by the divinities of Bhairava who are within the Heart and who bring escape from the vibration of manifestation which leads to an obscuring of the Self, and are rather directed towards the supreme vibration which consists of the opening of the Self. These same divinities destroy the chief bond which is the state of contraction." Continuing, Ahbinagupta says... "In order that this sacrifice be successful, one must properly honor (the goddess) with fragment flowers which effortlessly allow for an entrance into the heart; ... But one may ask, how should he sacrifice properly? With the highest devotion, with reference and great faith, all of which grant absorption. This great devotion consists in effecting the subordination of the finite levels of the body, the vital breath, and the subtle body. This subordination consists in accomplishing a state of humble devotion, whose nature is an immersion into the essence of that which results in the removal of those finite levels and the establishment of the superiority of the supreme consciousness, whose nature is the Divinity which has been described and which is to be sacrificed to." Then also specifically describing practice such as mantra-s and mudra-s, he says... "When such a practice, consisting of absorption into the mantas-s and mudra-s in their universal form, has become strong, if he extends it constantly in the midst of that practice to three hours without interruptions, shining simultaneously, of one taste, whatever divinity connected with a mantra or mudra is placed in the Heart, then that divinity is brought near by the powers of Rudra, is drawn to him by the powers of Rudra, formed by the power which develops from his constant absorption; he sees it before his very eyes, in identity with his own body, because it's form has been known." At even higher levels he is able to perceive whole hosts of divine beings... "Moreover, when he does not abandon the practice of absorption... Then he will behold the Mothers, Brahmi and the others;... All of these are endowed with the great power of Bhairava..."

Very interesting points on the "zen sickness". Things like that can definitely happen to advanced meditators, but I am surprised that they didn't have the insights to more effectively diagnose what what happening at an energetic level. Or the teacher not able to help with the physical issues.

As I stated earlier, I am not a XYP practitioner, but they have graciously allowed me to check out the connections and initiation process. From my review I would state the following to the above questions... - this is real stuff and no one should treat the initiation/commitment lightly - the FFS process is very similar to forming a bond (or committing) to a guru - there is no karmic debt created, but such bonds can easily cross "lives" - there is definitely some type of "levels" related to the FFS beings, some more powerful than others - reviewing the last initiation there was noticeable mental clarity shift/expansion with those I checked before and after the initiation. Hope that helps.

I have had some similar experiences, but for me it was more feeling the beings than getting the cool visuals that you do. My perspective is that they are there to help. Depending on your practices and experience, consider touching or hugging them. See what you get from the connection. I am sure more will unfold from that. Also, do not be surprised if you find the two beings sort of merging into one (or one form becomes more dominant).

Shad, While I agree with Old Wolf that you should just let it go and flow, that can be somewhat overwhelming in the early stages. If you find you need a break or a little more space, just let me know and I can probably help you take the edge off. Best, Jeff

If your intent was for this post to be off topic, then I think it is in the right place. If not, then... nothing is truly permanent...

I tend to see it as we are all where we need to be at the time...

Excellent questions. Thank you. I believe that there is much you can do, but that "doing" is much more about letting go of issues and fears. It is those issues and attachments that block the divine grace of which you speak. Confusion comes from the perception of personally doing, and the ego attachments that result from it. One becomes present when you do not get caught up in the autopilot mental responses that happen by reacting to those subconscious issues and fears. The key is learning to open your heart. Letting go of issues and fears is very hard as they are often seen as the armor that protects us from living in the world around us. But dropping that armor is what is necessary to find what you are looking for. If you wish to have something proactive to do, then I would describe it like this... forgiveness. Forgive everyone for everything, especially yourself. Such forgiveness opens your heart, makes room for others, and calls out to the divine...

While I do not have any experience with NDE, years back when I first started feeling energy stuff, I conducted hundreds of energy experiments with other practioners. We would set up control groups and then independently verify subjective energy perception (dealing with the placebo effect). Even had an MD and PhD participate in a few of the experiments. On measurable stuff that was not simply subjective human experience, was able to consciously/energetically (remotely) manipulate a biometric sensor machine. You can read about the machine here... https://www.zyto.com There are also some kirrilian field imaging chambers that supposedly can see energy flows at certain frequencies. A wholistic healer I know has talked about buying one when she can afford it. She said that a seminar she saw an energy healer actually pulse energy real time out of her hand, kind of expanding and sending blobs of aura energy.

No shaman that follow the Dao?

Do not Taoist Shaman channel immortals for divine inspiration and help?

If you don't mind, I don't really understand your point regarding the deity. If a deity offers to help any who want it (initiates), how is that different then other guru/master/immortal based traditions?

Excellent decription and very cool approach. Also, thanks for pointing out that issues and fears are stored in the (energy) body.

As 3bob touched upon in his earlier post, different types of energy flow at different frequencies. One can be relatively clear in one area, but still have a major issue/fear in another. Such a fear can cause a normally nice person, to fly into a rage when such a deep fear is hit. Anger is anger, whether childish tantrum or rage from being stuck in traffic. But, I would agree that seeing the anger bubble up, being able to catch it and not get caught up in it is a much more advanced understanding/state. The basic stages are: overwhelmed by the anger; realize you are getting angry, but can't help yourself; catch your self and watch it; catch yourself and laugh at how silly it all is; let it go and clear sailing, while responding effectively to the situation... that is being a sage...