Jeff

We definitely do seem to find completely different things in the gospels. Also, here are some actual writings of Paul that also show my point. Additionally, while the old testement talks about "punishment", the message of Jesus and the gospels are all about love and forgiveness. Romans 8:6-17 6For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. 12Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. 14For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. 15For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:17And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. And some more on the point... For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:... Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more. Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. (2 Corinthians 5:1-6, 16-21 KJV) Jesus did not teach about an "earthly" realm and ruling it. That is more the Jewish concept of a messiah.

Yes, I guess we will just have to agree to disagree. I think it is all incredibly well summed up in the beginning of John. Maybe we could discuss that... John 1:1-13 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. 6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. 8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. 9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. Verse 12 describes it well... To any who paid attention and listened to him, he taught them how to be a son of God.

You have taken each of the above statements out of context and used them to support your "philosophical ideas"... In context... 42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? 43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. 44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder. 45 And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them. In this context, Jesus is talking about bad teachers and how they mislead. Similar to what Buddha would often say. In this one... 22 And as they did eat, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and brake it, and gave to them, and said, Take, eat: this is my body. 23 And he took the cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them: and they all drank of it. 24 And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many. 25 Verily I say unto you, I will drink no more of the fruit of the vine, until that day that I drink it new in the kingdom of God. 26 And when they had sung an hymn, they went out into the mount of Olives. 27 And Jesus saith unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered. 28 But after that I am risen, I will go before you into Galilee. He is describing communion and talking about his ascension after death. Not really talking about drinking alcohol... And to your point on people having ranks... 24 And when the messengers of John were departed, he began to speak unto the people concerning John, What went ye out into the wilderness for to see? A reed shaken with the wind? 25 But what went ye out for to see? A man clothed in soft raiment? Behold, they which are gorgeously apparelled, and live delicately, are in kings' courts. 26 But what went ye out for to see? A prophet? Yea, I say unto you, and much more than a prophet. 27 This is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee. 28 For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he. 29 And all the people that heard him, and the publicans, justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John. 30 But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him. 31 And the Lord said, Whereunto then shall I liken the men of this generation? and to what are they like? 32 They are like unto children sitting in the marketplace, and calling one to another, and saying, We have piped unto you, and ye have not danced; we have mourned to you, and ye have not wept. 33 For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine; and ye say, He hath a devil. 34 The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners! 35 But wisdom is justified of all her children. One must understand in context that Jesus is talking about "realization" as being "one with God". Jesus specifically says in the section that "wisdom is justified of all her children". Wisdom/Sophia part of all her children, it is more just a question if one realizes it or not. The realized ones just sing and dance... Best wishes.

Again, I would respectfully disagree. It sounds more much more like you may being doing that. Have you read the words of Jesus, he is pretty clear on the topic... Luke 17: 20-21 20 Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, “The kingdom of God does not come with observation; 21 nor will they say, ‘See here!’ or ‘See there!’ For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you.” Best wishes.

There are two main types and how they feel or translate qi/energy. Some notice it as vibrations or feelings of flowing. Others, notice it more as increased mental clarity, sort of like your mind gets calmer/quieter. You are more of the second type at this point. Additionally, feeling big movements of energy/qi often come with the opening of your heart. With such a shift, you will easily begin to notice it. A teacher can definitely help you to feel such an energy flow, but big shifts and movements are about breaking down existing stored energy structures in your body. It is about clearing and letting go of deep issues and fears. Best wishes.

I would agree that Jesus brought about a big and dangerous movement... “I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled? But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished! Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division: For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three.” ‭‭Luke‬ ‭12:49-52‬ ‭KJV‬‬ On the deep spiritual understanding point... I will have to respectfully disagree...

I think you may be missing the point of the quote. Jesus is basically saying... Drop your earthly attachments and follow him focusing on the spiritual rather than the physical stuff. This quote from the gospel describes the point... 1 Corinthians 15:42-49 42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man.

Seems like basically the same to me. Both descriptions are basically "blind acceptance". Especially, since you are starting with a description of faith that was from others... Osho, Watts or someone...

I would agree. Such a statement is a logic trap. Once you have such base statement to a "framework", you could easily argue that it is itself only an intermediate view.

I look forward to the continuing discussion. Overall, I do believe that there are very subtle differences between the rangtong and shentong positions, and though it goes against the views of many, I tend to be much more in the Shentong camp. But, my personal views are well summed up by the Śrī-jñānavajrasamuccaya... Whatever arises from luminosity, that is called “mind,” “intellect" and “consciousness,” that is the foundation of all phenomena, the two stages are realized from affliction and purification… In order to explain the reality of all phenomena [gnas lugs], whatever arises from luminosity is dharmatā, the dhātu of naturally pure luminosity. Since a nonconceptual knowing awareness arises at the same time as the subtle vāyu, the mind [citta, sems] is the basis of all… The reality of that inner consciousness, nonconceptual innate dharmatā, is the nature of luminosity, empty and not a self… The reality of luminosity is an unfabricated mind which arises from it different from generic consciousness… luminosity is the ultimate truth… based on luminosity, the ultimate true state, the path is traversed rapidly… luminosity is dharmatā, suchness, pure like space, great bliss, unceasing, immaculate, peace, ultimate, mahāmudra itself. Mahāmudra of union is attained from luminosity that is very free from proliferation… Natural luminosity is totally pure, immaculate, like the element of space… At a practical level, it is all about realizing the clear light (luminosity) of mind.

The Ornamental Illumination of Pristine Consciousness that Enters the Domain of the Noble Buddhas Sūtra states... Awakening [bodhi] is the natural luminosity of the natural luminosity of the mind. If it is asked why [bodhi] called luminosity, whatever is natural, that is without affliction, equal with space, possessing the nature of space, properly included within space and like space, because it is very luminous by nature. Like with your pillar analogy, rather than to just say that the pillar does not exist, it is more helpful to take increasingly refined views of a pillar so that one realizes the "underlying nature". A pillar is solid to the touch, but look at it with an electron microscope and you will realize that it is not solid, but really just space with the repulsive force of electrons moving around. Look deeper and one realizes that electrons themselves are not even "solid" things revolving around and atom, but actually more like energy in theoretical states at moments of time with no inherent place or existence. Works the same with a "mind"...

That "if" being not just being intellectually seen, but actually realized, is to me a very important point. The issue is that most of the karmic "crap" is in the subconscious and hence not directly accessible (or easily found). Without things like the broader tantric components of mind, too often one can "clear a conscious mental space" and declare victory, when in reality they are only swimming in a small pool, rather than the ocean itself. Realizing the underlying clear light - luminosity (of mind) is the key...

Yes, I was just having fun with the turn of phrase. But, while they may be the "ground", the Play of Noble Mañjūśrī Sūtra clearly states... "Afflictions are temporary, they cannot simultaneous with the realization of emptiness; they cannot simultaneous with the knowledge of the absence of characteristics and the absence of aspiration; they cannot simultaneous with natural luminosity." So the crap must be cleared (dropped), if one wishes to realize the underlying luminosity(clear light)...

To add to your point, the sutra of The Manifestation Into the Domain the Method of Of the Sphere of Bodhisattvas states... The mind for unsurpassed true perfect awakening is the mind without afflictions because the turmoil of afflictions has been removed; is the mind of luminosity because it is luminous by nature... Or... Start with a messy mind... clear out the crap... notice the underlying luminosity (light)... and just hang...

Thank you for opening this interesting topic. To dive in (and make it a little interesting), I have always found the starndard rangtong position to be supported by more logical academic types. Those who have a more direct "experiential" approach, start with a basis in "mind", and hence, realize the practical value of the yogacara view, then with combination of the Tathagataghara you have Shentong. Summed up clearly in The Definitive Explanation of the Compassion of the Tathāgata... Because the mind is naturally luminous, awakening is naturally luminous. If it is asked for what reason it is naturally luminous, what is natural, that without afflictions, equivalent with space, the nature of space, remains equal with space, is even because it is even with space. That nature is very luminous. Since childish ordinary people do not comprehend natural luminosity, they are afflicted by temporary afflictions. The tathāgatas engage sentient beings with compassion, thinking, "They should comprehend natural luminosity."

Ok. Dont remember that and "guessing my feelings" doesn't sound at all like anything I have ever done in chat. Also, I never "stop by" without permission. Anyways, have not been in chat at the bums in a while...

Confused. You and I did? Not sure what you mean?

Jeff style chat?

Yes, but as has been discussed earlier, nirvikalpa samadhi is a state that people "come back from". A salt doll that dissolves in the ocean, is telling a story of "cessation", as salt dolls do not ever reconstitute and come back. With your analogy... if you see nirvikalpa samadhi as a salt doll dissolving in the ocean, then sahaja samadhi would be like knowing you are the entire ocean, not just something dissolved into it.

To me, the analogy is ok, but sort of a limited view perspective. It is similar to, but loses the broader aspect that comes with the "full building" analogy that was mentioned earlier.

Bindi, I take it that you are not someone who like to run (or maybe ride a bike). They do not do it because it is hard work, runners love to run. Distance bike riders love to ride. Burn and muscles getting stronger is just a natural part of the process. Also, the ballon is not the body, the ballon is the bubble of sense of self. The air is the energy that is freed up as the fears and issues are released/broken down. It seems that none of my analogies are helpful for you, so I will let it go and stop. Best wishes, Jeff

Relates to your current opening level, so will pm. Can bring it back here if you want...

Here or pm?

Because you are currently translating energy that you are sensing around you in your mind. Also, transmitting it now too. You are pretty easy to feel/sense.

The concept of energy and the analogy of exercising or running long distances related to Nirvikalpa samadhI are two different things. If one has meditated for long periods of time, I had thought that the analogy of distance running/exercising would be useful. The "letting air out of a ballon" also works relative to one's practices. When air is no longer trapped in a ballon, what happens to the ballon and also the air that was trapped inside of the ballon?