Jeff
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Everything posted by Jeff
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I have dived very deep into the nature of it, and simply have not found it to equate as you do. But, I would definitely agree that the "difference" is very, very subtle. That is why I have pointed to the motion=rest example. In buddhism, it would be found in the Heart Sutra, where Emptiness = Form and also Form = Emptiness. Both are uniquely true and required with the realization of emptiness; the concept that you are describing is only half (or Form = Emptiness).
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The difference is in the concept of "exist" and "eternal". It goes to the fundamental nature of "what is".
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Haha... Now that was a good one... Disagreeing about disagreement...
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Yes, I would agree that using any such text can be challenging as the words themselves are open to interpretation. And since we both seem to be basing our interpretation on our own direct experience and perspective, rather than some absolute, it makes it even more interesting. Maybe it is as simple that we just see it differently, based upon each of our own experiences. Agree to disagree.
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Is that not what you said in the text I quoted? The concept of the Dao "existing" is like my post from the gospel of Thomas and realizing that motion and rest are the same thing. If something is to "exist", such is not possible. Here is another quote from the TTC (SFH version) that touches on this point... CHAPTER 4 The Dao is forever like an unfathomable empty space. If used, it can never be used up. It is the source of the Ten Thousand Things. Look with your heart, see its form in the glare, be at one with the dust of the Earth, simplify your nature. For it is ever present, hidden in the depths of the myriad things. I don't know from whence it came, but it is great. The statement of... "The Dao is forever like an unfathomable empty space. If used, it can never be used up." As described as an empty space, it does not really exist. And, in that unfathomable empty space, motion and rest are the same thing.
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Since you have personally defined Brahman as the same as the Dao, it make such a discussion challenging. But, our difference of view can be found in this simple statement of yours..."Brahman exists on its own accord". Whether non-dual or not in view, that is a defining statement, and creates rungs on a ladder...
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While I understand your logic, I see it differently and believe we are describing two different principles/concepts. But maybe our challenge is in my understanding of Brahman. Is not Brahman, the highest reality, beyond which no other (self) exists? And hence, Brahman "exists"; and with Atman=Brahman, it is kind of like extrapolating it to the concept of infinity?
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For many who have realized the one emerging and establishing itself (from the Dao), it is not simple semantics, but a fundamental difference of perspective. Here you can see another version of the same... 50. Jesus said, "If they say to you, 'Where have you come from?' say to them, 'We have come from the light, from the place where the light came into being by itself, established [itself], and appeared in their image.' If they say to you, 'Is it you?' say, 'We are its children, and we are the chosen of the living Father.' If they ask you, 'What is the evidence of your Father in you?' say to them, 'It is motion and rest.'" -Gospel of Thomas It is this same point, that sent Buddha on his (different) way...
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Hi Dwai, With respect to you and your teacher, for your "one" or non dual state being the end/highest (or done), I offer the following for your consideration... TTC CHAPTER 42 (SFH version) The Dao begot one, one gave birth and then there was two. Two begot three. And so the Ten Thousand Things were formed. The Ten Thousand Things each contain Yin and Yang. They are in harmony by having both of these forces. From this, the forces are divided still; for the Male has more Yang and the Female has more Yin. So they are different. By coming together, they beget another life. So the Ten Thousand Things depend on these forces. When the forces are upset and out of balance, so the Earth and the Ten Thousand Things will suffer. Know the balance and all will be well. ....... Consider knowing the Dao also... Best, Jeff
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If it is something that you go "in and out of", then is that not defining a state? And if a state, how do you know if there is not a state beyond that state?
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If you mean the Ramakrishna position that all religions are rungs of a ladder that leads to Brahma-jnana, then I would probably disagree. But, that would ultimately depend on how one would define Brahma-jnana. How about you?
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Which basically sums up my point...
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I also do not wish to belabor the point, but how would a "fully enlightened Adviata Vedantin" posit such a position. That all traditions are the same as his...?
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The issue/danger with such a perspective is that one often extrapolates their own view onto other traditions. Can one practice every major religion when there are significant differences in the views... unless one views those differences from within their own "box"?
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Brian, If you don't mind, a suggestion... While I agree that there can be such things, if one is feeling or seeing a chakra above the crown it may be the eighth chakra or it may not. (Often those with 3rd eye vision see such things, but have not yet opened the crown itself.) But, if one is looking at it, one is not really residing at it. In human terms, the eighth chakra is sort of like an universal human (soul) level. If one is residing at the eighth, you will know it and it will be like you can actually find and feel everyone in your heart. Best, Jeff
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Excellent point on the gate. Some also call it the basis for the "light body".
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Your neo-quasi-transcendent-non-dual sounds very complicated... Why not just dive deep into God and "reside"?
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Fair enough... Though, I am not so sure on the devil's advocate approach.
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If such is what you believe, then why the original post on karma being like simple inertia? How can one trapped/focused on suffering use such an analogy? To use your analogy.... A mass at rest, stays at rest. A mass in motion stays in motion going the same direction... Unless one applies a new "force" on the mass in motion and hence effects the direction of the mass. Spiritual practices are like such a new force. But, ultimately the key is realizing as you said, the mass is empty. When mass is zero, it doesn't matter how much energy is applied to it, because the result is still zero. And one has full range of freedom (or karma has no effect).
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Yes, a body in motion tends to stays in motion, that is the issue/problem. But labeling it good or bad, dark or light is still just being caught in the same inertia (or momentum ).
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What is dark karma? And if it has such kind of "qualities", it is definitely not your previous "inertia" example...
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If someone is changing their name, there is a percieved reason and they want to make a statement. One who worries about such things has not realized "true self".
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Is not experiencally reborn as a "true self" a change of state? A going from this to that? And if they are thinking about such a change and comparing it to the past, can they be in the present moment?
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If they think they are a new person, they are not enlightened...
