Jeff

Sure... If one can simply learn to reside, and let go of all issues and fears, everything is opened to them. While nothing is truly "gained", what has been lost/obscured can be "found".

Abhinavagupta responds... "The whole universe is set in your essence within the ocean, within the Heart, in the life-span. Let us win your honeyed wave that is brought to the face of the waters as they flow together." "He who by means of this teaching perceives on all sides the universe like a mass of foam in the midst of the ambrosial ocean of consciousness, he is declared to be the one Siva Himself"

Agreed. Maybe if I imagine one...

Thanks. Guess I am just too boring...

Sorry, what happened with it? Guess I am pretty slow...

Nodjyinmo Changchubma, the daughter of King Sidsung, was endowed with all desirable qualities, great faith, and wisdom. She asked Lui Gyalpo Gawo for the essence of the teachings. He summarized them for her thus: I am Lugyal Gawo... Without needing to be forsaken, the emotions are the five great wisdoms. Without needing to be removed, the three poisons' are the perfection of Body, Voice and Mind. Without needing to be eliminated, samsara is the path that leads to the bliss of bodhi. Thus has the state of knowledge of the Buddhas of the three times arisen in me.

So is your point that many can't handle the overwhelming energy flows of opening the crown? (seventh vault)

13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. 14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness; 15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace; 16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.

The smart play would be to cover all options. Very unlikely that 6 people would win. We could start a bums effort to do it...

Harsh Words The essence of the fourth verbal nonvirtue, harsh words, is talk that hurts another person. When divided, there are the following kinds. 1. Exposing someone’s faults in public 2. Hurting someone indirectly 3. Uttering in private something that will hurt another person Tsogyal, the fire of harsh words burns the heart of both yourself and others. The weapon of harsh words kills the life force of liberation. This act is consummated by the four completing aspects, and has the following three types of results. 1. The result of ripening is to be reborn in the three lower realms. 2. The dominant result is that, even if you take rebirth as a human being, whatever you say will be offensive to others and you will always appear to irritate them. 3. The result corresponding to the cause is that you will be fond of speaking harsh words. Tsogyal, if you abandon these actions you will attain the results of their opposites. The sentient beings of the dark age have no happiness. padmasambhava guru Rinpoche (2013-12-01). Dakini Teachings (p. 42). Rangjung Yeshe Publications.

In Dzogchen, on the other hand, the method of self-liberation is taught right away, a method in which there is nothing to renounce or to transform. If one does not have sufficient capacity, however, this self-liberationtion will not bring real results. For this reason, in the Dzogchen teachings it is advised that one should know how to apply whatever kind of method is most adapted to the circumstances one finds oneself in, and most suited to one's level of capacity, until one has really acquired knowledge of the state of self-liberation. This is something the practitionertioner him or herself must be aware of. Chogyal Namkhai Norbu. Dzogchen: The Self-Perfected State

Along the same lines, here is a quote form Tau Malachi (mystical Christian) that you might find helpful. Think of the eighth heaven as your eighth chakra or higher energy center... .... If we gaze upon any soul from the perspective of the eternal realm, or eighth heaven, what will that soul look like? Remember, there is no time, no past, present and future in the eternal realm; there is only the eternal now, and all appears in its perfection and completion, and yet, all in a great and supreme mystery, there is this play of evolution and realization in space-time, and in some way this Being and Becoming are inseparable from one another, and there is no contradiction between them. Here, though, we must labor for the realization of the Being of the Becoming, the holy remembrance of our True Being in the Messiah and El Elyon, or the Light Continuum – the Supernal Abode (eternal realm). In this process of the evolution and development of souls, and their realization, or enlightenment, nevertheless, souls are at various stages of evolution and realization, and as yet countless souls, or sentient beings, are bound up in ignorance, or complete forgetfulness. In effect, they are asleep and dreaming strange and fitful dreams, and need to wake up and remember who and what they really are! A mental concept of this, or vital believe in this, accomplishes nothing – there must be knowledge and understanding, and realization, through direct experience of who and what we are in the Light Continuum and in God; only then can we engage in a conscious evolution, or repentance, to reintegrate our soul with the Light Continuum and return to God, and so embody who and what we are in the Light Continuum and God. Here we are speaking an open secret. Until we receive the Spirit of the Messiah, and enter deeper into the experience of Light Transmission and the direct experience of the Light Continuum, we cannot repent, we cannot return to God and enter into conscious union with God, the True Light. True and full repentance, or reintegration, requires the experience of Light Transmission; hence, actual initiation and spiritual empowerment. This is why initiation and spiritual empowerments are central to Christian Gnostics, and to virtually all authentic mystical traditions; one does not become a Gnostic by converting to another religious doctrine, but rather one becomes Gnostic through direct spiritual and mystical experience, through a Gnostic experience of Christ and God. If we do not enter into direct experience of the Truth and Light, how shall we know the Truth and Light so as to reintegrate our soul with it and embody it? Whatever someone might tell us about it, however lovely and well informed, is not knowledge, understanding or wisdom for us until we have direct experience of the Truth and Light ourselves, plain and simple. Thus, more that just teach about the Truth and Light, Gnostic Apostles engage in an energetic transmission to help facilitate our own direct experience of Christ and God, so that we might know how to repent, or how to return to God. Listen and hear, and understand! The initial phase of repentance, or returning to God is this: We must “part the waters,” which is to say that we must redirect the flow of our energy; instead of downward and outward to the world and things of the world, we must learn to direct our energy inward and upward, to the kingdom of heaven and God – hence, directing it Godward. Then, having redirected the flow of our energy, generating the presence of awareness, we need to unify awareness and energy, and fully recognize and realize the reality of our experience on every level is the radiant display of our own energy, our mind, consciousness or soul. In this, so we will recognize and realize the very essence and nature of mind, consciousness or soul, and realize the inseparability, or innate unity, of the mind, consciousness or soul from its source, Christ and God, the True Light. This is the spiritual meaning of “repentance,” or teshuvah, and it is the tikkune of the soul and tikkune of the world. In this realization, the distinction between downward and outward, and inward and upward vanishes – there is no longer any difference. In fact, if and when a Gnostic Apostle engages the Light Transmission, while joining their energy with that of another soul, and uplifting the energy inward and upward, at the same time they are turning their awareness and energy downward and outward, hence the transmission of the Holy Light in that place, with those souls who are able to receive it in that place. If we understand the truth of our being in the eternal realm, or the inmost parts of our holy soul, or the truth of who and what we are in Christ and God, so we will understand that radical leaps are possible in the soul’s evolution and realization, and we will understand that an experience of Thunderbolt Enlightenment is entirely possible; the Being of our Becoming can be swiftly remembered and realized if we will enact an active and dynamic surrender to Divine Grace, co-creating the conditions in which Divine Grace can move with, in and through us.

Such "fusing" happens beyond the local body mind. At higher levels we are both male and female or neither depending on one's perspective.

Brian, The eighth chakra is also known as the "inner heart" in many traditions. It is beyond the local body mind. More mind based types see it above the head, more heart based people feel it more like the basis of an integrated field based in the inner heart (not the same as the heart chakra). Also, if you search the forum, there have been a couple of threads in the past on the topic. Best, Jeff

That explanation was included in my previous response.

Welcome

Welcome

I am not trying to say that I personally find the distinctions helpful. My point was in the topic of the thread and comparing Dzogchen to Tantra. To me, for such a discussion it is important to realize that there may be fundamental differences in the operating framework between the two. Sort of what is "theoretically possible" with the different paths. And "a dog chasing it's tail"... Is that not in many ways the nature of all discussion? But, personally, I often learn things from such reflection... Best wishes.

Thanks, but I am familiar with the classical understanding of no self. But, originally there was classically the concept of two fold emptiness. The first fold being emptiness of self (what you are describing) and the second fold being emptiness of ultimate reality (or the universe and stuff). My point is that Rigpa is beyond emptiness of self component and the framework of which I have been describing is possibly related to the emptiness of ultimate reality. When residing in Rigpa, one goes on to drop the obstructions that obscure such realization. With realizing that ultimate reality is inherently "empty" one can easily connect to or help others, as it is realized that such perceived separation has never really existed.

In terms of "light", I am not thinking about it in terms of differentiating it between dark and light. I am fine with the classic definition of Rigpa and happy to just drop the whole light thing for this discussion. My point is probably found in what you seem to be calling the "subtle level". You seem to be defining that there is a subtle level where communication amongst various beings can take place. Hence, defining some "framework" or level for that communication to happen. Where the classical view of buddhism has been that there is no such "subtle level" that connects.

Are you saying that there are no beings at all? Or more that there is one being and any perceived separation is just the one being confused?

No desire to debate meanings of words. But, you seem to be avoiding the issue of how others are connected or accessed while residing in rigpa. (Or are you just disagreeing with the quote? ) Are you saying that the connection process described is the same as the communicative aspect of the Samboghakaya? And by default, since their is direct contact or communication, does that not require some medium or framework for that communication to pass through?

Here is a site and related search with some very useful information... http://www.sophian.org/forum/search.php?keywords=Metatron&terms=all&author=Tau+malachi&sc=1&sf=all&sk=t&sd=d&sr=posts&st=0&ch=300&t=0&submit=Search

Because the quote is stating that it is possible to connect and help others. And that is possible while residing in Rigpa (or what I often call "light" in a mystical christian framework). The classical buddhist view is that it is not possible to connect to others and also not possible to "help", because mind streams are completely separate and hence no framework for anyone to reach anyone else.

I understand what you are saying and agree that is the common buddhist understanding... That is why I think that TI's quote is so powerful/controversial, because the quote is completely accurate in my experience.