Stigweard

This threshold is quite literally 'the edge of a cliff over the void'; the verge between our tonal and the awesomeness of an infinitely unlimited universe. Our words and instruction can lead us to the edge but beyond that the practitioner has naught to do but jump (or be pushed lol). The "what happens to you?" is totally irrelavent because it is indescribable. It is your attachment to 'you' that is the barrier. Without an authentic teacher, or Nagual (of which I make absolutely no claim to be in any way shape or form ... lol had to be said ), the best way is 'cautiously and with baby steps'. This is where I believe the Taoist tradition has so much to offer. Step 1: Nourish and integrate your three treasures Jing, Qi, and Shen Step 2: Cultivate virtue Step 3: Silence the internal dialogue Note that these three steps are simultaneous. Do this and at the very least you will have the foundation of a healthy, happy life. Don't bother heading to the cliff's edge until you do (I know of at least one foolhardy yet eternally optimistic practioner who tried to do so ... hahhahahahaa ) Ahem ... where was I? Oh yes... Try not to get too attached to your classifications. In all likelihood the founders of your tradition came up with these terms as their best description of a state of being that is beyond rational comprehension. The names are the proverbial finger pointing to the moon.

My wife, Carol, has developed an interestingly effective technique for silencing the internal dialogue. A case of using the features of the Tonal to unravel the Tonal. We have been having a stressful period with our teenage daughter (enough said) and it was really throwing my wife's emotions around. I made a point of this and suggested she implement a way for her to interrupt the disturbing thought patterns she was having. She turned and smiled at me with that all knowing glint in her eye and told me what she had accomplished. Carol is a singer who has also participated in quite a few kirtan chanting groups. Using what comes natural to her she has started chanting Om Mani Padma Hum in her mind ... but get this -- she is actually singing the chant in multipart cannon with each part harmonising with the others. Apparently she has got 2 parts down solid and is working on the third and will aim at a four part harmonised cannon in her head !!! As you can imagine her internal dialogue ceases completely and she is able to create the state change of her choosing. I love it!

I love all this dialogue developing consciousness coming together doing linguistic push hands finding each others rhythm translating words meaning exploring the nebulus of mixed ideas growing learning never the same again yet always we are dust drifts and we are gone

To clarify further the Tonal can be also be referred to as the "known" whilst the Nagual is the "unknowable". So your inner content would still be part of the Tonal as it can be known. Important point here is that the Tonal also covers that which is unknown but can be knowable. For example Qi perception for many is unknown but with the right sort of instruction and practice and it can be known. I agree with Freeform's usage of the term 'bandwidth' when it comes to our cognitive awareness. Purely as a hypothetical model of example, let us say that humans are able to percieve from bandwidth 89 through to bandwidth 144. However most people, through their social conditioning, only perceive from 95 to 105. So for these people their Tonal (i.e. their known) is the bandwidth 95-105, which means their unknown are the bandwidths from 89-94 and from 106-144 (again purely hypothetical). If this model has any congruency to universal reality then the first 'step' or objective is to engage in disciplined self-cultivation to access the full range of human potentional (89 through to 144 in the above hypothetical example), this in Taoist translation is the emergence or revitalisation of the Original Self, Original Spirit, or True Nature. Once the wholeness of self-nature is achieved then comes the alchemical process of sublimation where consciousness 'ascends' into a bandwidth beyond human possibility which, from the reference point of human awareness, can only be called the Nagual, the unknowable.

The doctor is in Out comes the dreaded scalpel Invasive treatment

I believe Freeform gave an excellent description in regards to Cognitive Psychology in Post #5 Etymology thread.

Yep that is all I was implying with the analogy. Perhaps I am wrong when I associate "Taiji" with a state of formlessness???

I agree and I admit that a deeper understanding of the Chinese language is an area of learning I truly want to explore. If any members here have knowledge of Chinese etymology I would very much enjoy reading about it in this thread. I have only just heard this 'bit' model recently elsewhere and am interested. Can you explain it further freeform? I get the 'guts' of the outline ... Where is this referenced from? What body of science are you drawing on here?

Hehehe ... indeed you did. I wrote this post over a period of hours and by the time I had actually posted it you had posted yours All good... Carry on, no foul, Lin has the ball

Being in the now... I agree with Lin that this 'catch phrase' is easily misrepresented. The unfortunate prediliction of our rational based 'ego' is that, for the most of us, our awareness of 'now' is ever only a mistranslated memory of a moment that has already occurred and passed us by. We first have the original phenomena, the 'real' now. However our experience of this 'now' shrinks because our perception is limited to only a miniscule bandwidth of what is possible. This emaciated 'now' is diluted even further through the filter of our individual, socially conditioned view of the world. So for the majority of people 'now' is nothing more than a distorted memory. If we want to truly 'live in the now' we have to dissolve our 'view of the world' and access the full bandwidth of perception available to human awareness. My understanding and experience is that the practical techniques within the traditions of Tao endeavour toward this achievement.

Just a point of focus to your dilema ... Wu Wei does not necessarily mean 'non doing', but rather to 'do nothing' beyond one's own nature, beyond one's virtue. If you have a practice that stills the mind then work with it until your mind is quiet and subtle. Then sincerely ask yourself "Where lies the path of the greatest good for everyone involved?" Gently listen to what forms in your mind and pay attention to what messages life brings you. This may help ... I hope it does. Blessings.

Though I agree that the adherence to the popular face value of words is important for communication, I believe etymology is no limitation at all but perhaps an opportunity for insight and development. Let me explain... This process of words changing meaning is called 'cultural shift'. You have the original intention of a word at its inception but, through socialization and cultural change, the original meaning becomes something else entirely. It can be seen that individual socialization has the same effect. We have our 'original self' which has a pure intention (some would say the arts of astrology, and numerology, etc. presents us a 'portrait' of this original intention). However, through social conditioning we develop factitious diversions of consciousness that we incorrectly come to believe are ourselves, our personality. Thus this socialised self is merely the "popular use or interpretation" of oneself. The thing to remember, as I have presented in the thread: A Toltec view of Self, our personality (or my preferred term: Tonal) is based entirely on our descriptive use of words in association to ourselves and the world as we percieve it. So because our Tonal is a construct of words it is imperative we a] use our words impeccably, and b] take inventory of the words that we have used in the construction of our Tonal. It is also my belief that the original founders of the written word created the alphabets we use as spiritual symbolic representations of their understanding and connection with Universal Nature. We find clear examples of this in the Druidic Ogham, the Egyptian, Greek, and Hebrew alphabets, and perhaps even the I Ching. Thus in my understanding, the original use of words and the art of stringing letters together to encapulate intention and meaning was a mystical process. To this end, the double meaning of the word "spell" has interesting implications. Due to these points I have found that, in my experience, exploring the etymological roots of the words and their efficient use can help us to firstly bring a more harmonious 'structure' to our Tonal, and secondly, if we are in conscious or intentful control of our Tonal, we may trim away the socialized excess to bring us back to our original, mysterious, nameless self.

Wisdom is to 'see' Instant flow of true knowledge River meets the sea

I believe the natural drive in nature is to become whole and harmonious, so in my view there is a deep natural urge in us all to become reunited with the Universal Essence (in this context the Nagual). So my understanding is that the drive to experience the nagual originates in the "big Self". Through the act of self-preservation, our Tonal fixations have a tendency to fight tooth and nail when faced with the prospect of annihilation (i.e. merging with the Nagual). This tendency is often witnessed when, after a period of spiritual progression, a practitioner 'springs' back to old habitual behaviour. This 'two-steps-forward-one-step-back' affair continues until these threads of self-attachment (which can also be called 'self-importance') are sufficiently weakened and dissolved. It is not that our Tonal is erased, it is just that we no longer have attachments to it.

Any path, any book, any practice, and any tradition can be a 'springboard' to spiritual freedom if the practitioner aligns the appropriate intent and awareness. Many religions (regardless of whether they are Buddhist, Taoist, Judaic, Pagan etc) become merely an emotional crutch which replaces one false view of the world with another. The end result is that they are still locked within a fixed and limited consciousness. Whilst it is true that some religions and traditions have accumulated more emotional and mental snares then others, each path can provide a path to true spiritual achievement. Beyond all the words And many pointing fingers The moon is still there

Taoism and the Toltec path have many similarities and can supplement each other in many ways. In a real sense they are both 'sciences' exploring the same universal reality. As an example, practices like qigong and taijiquan achieve the Toltec goal because they work in two powerful ways. Firstly they work to liberate the energy locked away in the blockages within one's system; blockages that arise from the energetic enmeshment of our consciousness as a result of our internal dialogue fixations. Thus by clearing these internal blockages you are dissolving your 'view of the world', thus bringing your awareness back to original purity. And also, because qigong and taijiquan necesitates unified awareness, it serves as a 'sensory saturation' and thus stops the internal dialogue.

When his observation of original nature is no more. Where lies the source and power of a word?

Damn earwigs... Sorry got nothing...

Skeletric trees? Spring! Whilst elsewhere there is Autumn Journey round the globe

A friend of mine once said, "Discussing your Qi is like talking about your Johnson." Who knows maybe he is right...

Totally unnecessary response ... please learn some manners.

Integrity We are born whole and untouched and through our passage of becoming socially conditioned we become diminished. Either forcibly or voluntarily, parts of our original self are lost, some are distorted or some parts are locked away and forgotten. In our development toward wholeness and completeness we bring ourselves back to the naturally perfect condition of being untouched, undiminished, with uncorrupted virtue. Thus Tao can also be known as the Integral Path of Universal Wholeness.

Welcome ... have a seat, how do you like your tea?

Interesting indeed, well written. I thank you for the mention of the Golden Mean. I will come back to this. Question for you ... have you delved into any correlations with the Western Golden Mean?