Stigweard

Preamble: Having any moderation on a forum immediately creates its own potential pitfalls including: Separatism: By having one group of members having different rights and privileges than others an immediate state of "us and them" is created. This will inevitably cause resentments and feelings of inequality; Elitism: The trap is that the moderation team becomes self-important within their privileged status; Secrecy: A lot of the moderation decisions will by necessity take place "behind closed doors", in that the ordinary members wont see the majority of decisions being considered. This secrecy can cause mistrust amongst members; Favoritism: Moderators, if not kept in check, may fall into giving preferential treatment to members considered "valuable"; Stagnation: After maintaining their position for a period of time, moderators can lose their freshness and clear perspective of their role. In order to circumvent these pitfalls, the term cycle of Moderators will operate in this manner: At any one time there will be five (5) Moderators "seats", The maximum term duration for a moderator will be 6-months, after which the moderator must vacate their "seat", At any time at all a TaoBum member with more that 100 posts may apply to become a Moderator via the Forum and Tech Support. All they have to do is create a public post saying something like "I want to apply to be a moderator" in the topic heading; The existing moderators vote on the acceptance of the application which requires a two-third majority "Yes" votes; Once accepted one of two things take place: EITHER one of the existing moderators volunteers to vacate their seat and return to being an ordinary TaoBum member, OR the moderator who has been in term the longest must vacate their seat and return to being an ordinary TaoBum member; A moderator seat may also become vacant by an existing moderator voluntarily choosing to vacate their seat before their 6-month term is over. An announcement is made in the Forum and Tech Support and TaoBum members can make application and be accepted following the above process. This would solve the whole "us vs them" idea because at any stage an "us" could become a "them" and vice versa. It would also solve the "secrecy" paranoia because new moderators can step in see everything else that has been going on. The team would always be refreshed and enlivened with new folks coming through and it could very well engender the ideal of "members moderating themselves" and a feeling amongst members of "we are doing this ourselves". The other benefit of this is that, over time, there would be an increasing number of members who have been in the moderation role. Thus there would be progressively less reason for anyone to establish a view of "us vs them". Also you will find that these ex-moderators will be naturally more mindful of moderation considerations and will likely become an informal moderating influence in the forum.

To all who have chosen to engage me in this sincerely, I thank you I have realized that the model I through up didn't actually achieve what I am intuitively looking for. So I formally will renounce my assertions in the OP and declare them "Bullshit!" It has however helped me to become clearer in my mind about what I am really looking for and I have started a new conversation in that regards: http://www.thetaobum...on-the-taobums/

Bahahahah!!! I love seeing you get riled up We all have our areas of passion hey?

What ... shit is not spiritual ... really? Had one the other day that was pretty enlightening ... certainly felt lighter after.

OK so you want some comments? Well firstly it's obvious you are well practiced in these sequences. There were some nice pathways going on. You allowed the moves to be fluid with one gesture fairly much flowing into the next. Groovy. The footwork was smooth and clean with the weight properly distributed in the feet and your stances are well proportioned, nice. But there is no power being issued from the legs. When you step, instead of powering up from the legs into the hips and waist, you are "falling" from one leg to the other. You need to engage the legs more remembering that in Taiji power is initiated in the feet, issued by the legs, controlled by the hips and expressed in the fingertips. Your hips and waist are dormant. There is no transmission of power there; no indication that your mind/intent is centering itself in the dan tien. This follows into the torso, there is no power shifting through your spine. Your torso is frozen. This is all because your mind is too high. Your thoughts are in your arms, too focused on making the arms look right instead of allowing power to flow up through the body out through the arms. As a result your arms and hands are too high, unnecessarily exposing your midrift to attacks. But otherwise nice sequencing.

LOL No sense of humor some people. I remember a one of the episodes from "Opening the Dragon Gate" where the students teachers had him meditating in a bell that was covering a cesspit. There was a crack in the bell and the teachers continued to push more shit into the bell to test the student's concentration. Does this shit offend you? Well maybe you need to breathe it in a little further. But if it's the general feeling then ... "To the Pit with this shit!!"

OP duly updated Bravo ... send more shit !!

Thanks for your comments Steve, as always I respect your views. And this is why I will give a mighty big "HUZZAH!!!" that you have joined the team. Flicking forward to this comment: "...this is Sean's baby. It is his vision, not socialism." Other comments like this include "this is Sean's private site," "this is not a democracy" etc etc TaoBums has defaulted to a typical patriarchal, military style of leadership. Sean's at the top with his promoted 2nd tier of generals and then the regular troops underneath. If we really cut to the ideological quick, then it is this structure that I am questioning and challenging. Why do we have to impose this model on ourselves? Aren't we supposed to be seeking greater attunement with the principles of Laozi etc.?? Aren’t we supposed to be leading by example and actually living these Daoist ideals rather than just sitting in front of our screens talking about them? Sean has said that this isn't meant to be a utopian community ... well I say "WHY THE HELL NOT?" If we are truly honoring the philosophical basis of Daoism (we are trying to do that right?) then why should we just accept this outdated model of community that is in truth the antithesis of the Daoist ideal. Throughout the entire works of Laozi we see repeated criticism and warning against this top-down pyramid structure of authority. Personally I think we are running the risk of being just a bunch of hypocritical and mindless fools for just defaulting to a community structure like this. We are just saying, “Well that’s what we have been conditioned to think works so that’s what we will do as well.” Unquestioningly we are just being like a bunch of lemmings following convention for conventions sake. And if you asked us why we thought the world is in the sorry state that it’s in then I am damn sure we would acknowledge that a major part of that mix is the rigid authority models where only a few people hold the power over the masses. And yet here we are perpetuating and in fact defending the authenticity of such a community structure. Yes, yes, yes … it’s Sean’s site … blah, blah, blah. That’s an easy way to excuse yourself from not thinking creatively, from not asking yourself and those in charge the hard question of, “In this process are you truly giving your best? Are you really acting to the best or your ability? Or are you just passing responsibility back up the line to Sean because it’s his site?” If Dao is in your heart, if Laozi’s message truly sings in your veins then why are you not trying to bring that into the reality of this community which I know we all have so much love for??? “Bad idea”, “threaten stability”, “inevitable clashes,” “destabilize this situation” … How do you know this Steve? Truly? You sound like the republicans warning of what would happen if Obama got reelected Remember it’s only when we say something is bad that we create the good and vice versa. Why have you chosen to only see the possible downsides? Why can’t you engage a balanced view of this? Don’t you trust people to have some ownership? Don’t you trust people to behave responsibly? If you treat people like children they will behave like children, if you treat them like respected mature adults then you would be amazed how they begin to act accordingly. If you read the OP you would see that transitional moderators (whose term may be 12-18mths rather than 6mths – I agree that this was way too short) wouldn’t have full admin access so there would be no chance they could wreck anything. And if they did start breaking fences it’s just as easy to vote em out as it was to vote em in. Also you would find that it would naturally occur that mods rotated in and out in a spread out fashion. Meaning that it wouldn’t be like all of a sudden 5 mods dropped out and 5 stepped in. So you would find natural rhythm would emerge of mods maturing toward the end of their term mixed in with newbies who are learning the ropes. Also you would have noticed that 2 of the mods, the Gatekeepers, were permanent mods. These 2 would provide the ongoing stability and support for the whole process. They would provide the continuity throughout the changes. And you could also find that past mods might step in for another term if it was required. Quite possibly you would find that there would develop a group of maybe 10-15 members who became the extended mod group. As I mentioned in the OP, after being in the mod team they would become sort of “unofficial moderators” who would still be actively mindful of the moderating needs of the community. So to your “bad idea” I say that that is a one-sided subjective view that hasn’t sought the balance of considering all the possible benefits. To your “inevitable clashes” I say that we are already having inevitable and regular clashes under the current model and I am confident that, at the very least, this idea wouldn’t create any more clashes than is already going on. Furthermore I am quite confident that, over time it would engender more of a sense of cooperative community on the forum that would work towards minimizing said clashes in the future. Meaning less work for moderators, and I am sure we all want that right ?? To your “destabilization” I say the only real security lies in embracing change and, if Laozi has any truth about him, then you are in fact risking greater destabilization by clinging to rigid power structures. What I have presented in the OP (with the appropriate amendments that have arisen out of this discussion) rather than risking stability in fact enhances its stability by having a process that creates a stable core (aka the Gatekeepers) whilst having a an ever-evolving periphery of moderators. Steve it’s like Tai Chi. Is your stability found in only rigidly holding your place? Or do you engage and actively use change and move fluidly whilst maintaining your core? What would happen if you held your breath for too long Steve? Or do you make sure that your breath flows naturally and continuously? That is what my proposal here is trying to emulate.

CLASSIC !!!!

# Laozi: Talking about shit is not the real shit # Laozi 2: If they think "We did this shit" you're a good leader # Zhuangzi: Maybe I am just dreaming this shit

Perhaps this shit is teaching you that all shit is equal. Is this little pile any more or less valuable then any of the other piles left around the forum or cyberspace ?? And a bit of humourous levity may be just the shit we need at the moment yes?

# Mod Team: Get that shit outta here! # Mod Team 2: Have 7 days off to think about your shit # Fundie Taoism: We are going to exorcise that shit right out of you! # Fundie Taoism 2: If your shit doesn't have robes then it isn't shit.

# Mod Team: Get that shit outta here! # Mod Team 2: Have 7 days off to think about your shit

Another post worthy of consideration.

# Marblehead: This is purely objective shit # Marblehead 2: Nothing more to this shit than just shit # mjjbecker: If the shit knew how to self-moderate we wouldn't have all this other shit

# Stigweard: I am sooo going to get a star for this shit! ★★★

This is a worthy point, very worthy indeed.

VCraigP I am hearing you

Other threads of interest: Etymology of Wu Wei Wu Wei Questions about Wu Wei

I am sooo going to keep the OP updated with all new contributions

Steve: You can't gain anymore shit than you have, you just need to be more aware of shit happening

Whoa up there lad ... did I just see "Concierge" on your tag ???

On a more philosophical level (senses Marblehead scratching chin ), I think it is the way of Dao to not only recognize change but to in fact plan for it; to have change and evolution intrinsic within one's strategy. It's also the way of Laozi to minimize rigid structures of authority; to adopt, as best as one can, the principles of Libertarianism. The ideal is for the community members to say, "We did this ourselves". Now it would be wonderful if we could achieve mjjbecker's "all member's are self-moderated" and do away with moderators all together. I am sure that we will all agree that that won't be happening anytime soon. But it certainly is an ideal that we should try and approximate as close as possible. Currently there is quite a rigid divide between the Mod Team and the general membership, though maybe the current mods can't see this thinking "but we are still just members". Whilst this remains so to will the continuance of people expressing their contempt for the "us vs them" situation. This static environment is also fertile ground for mods to get too entrenched within their roles, to get too attached to the position whether that allure be authority, prestige or whatever. I know I could not honestly say that my self-importance wasn't attached to the position, and I would challenge every mod to truly inquire this of themselves. And in that attachment, to whatever degree it may be present, are you truly serving this community to the best of your ability? Though I am not saying that this is the situation at the moment, there is, I believe, a real risk that members of the Mod Team may get too entrenched and static. It happens to the most well meaning of people who think that, by clinging to their position of authority, they are doing "the best good" for all. To return to the idea in the OP (without of course fixating on its details), if we had a semi-formal way of rotating or refreshing the moderation team not only would the distinct line between Mod Team and the general membership become more and more fuzzy and indistinct, but we would safe-guard against the wreck and ruin that self-importance can play in positions of authority. As I mentioned previously, gradually over time with more and more people having their spell as a moderator there literally would develop a sense amongst the wider membership that "we have done this ourselves" as per Laozi's vision of a functional community. Absolutely! But it's also important to capture knowledge/wisdom at the front end by having other people bringing in the treasures and wisdom of their life into the moderation team. If the Mod Team just stayed with the same 5 or so folks all the time then things would get stagnant very quickly. It's actually quite unfair to think that the ongoing development and progress of the forum depends only a few folks, its also quite unnatural. I hear your considerations, I think it would be fairly accurate to say that Sean wanted to see more "authentic teachers" as regular posters. But the reality is that whenever one of em shows up they get fairly well buffeted about by people questioning their authority and their teachings etc. It's pretty inevitable that someone will take some sort of shot at them of some sorts. Most of these teachers aren't used to being cross-examined like this and some think it's disrespectful for the teacher to prove himself to potential students. Personally I think they all need a good dose of the TaoBums maelstrom. I can name only a few who have successfully navigated our waters with all sails still intact, and these rare individuals have my earnest respect. And it was to this, I believe, that Sean was directing his instruction to "body guard" certain members. I believe it was wrong then and I still believe it is wrong for any member to be given this sort of protection. If they can't stand on their own merits then they shouldn't be here at all. To your consideration of free-form vs quality sharing and learning, as I said in another thread I think the Taoist Discussion forum was a good idea it seems to be trickling along quite nicely ... sort of like a quite grove in the otherwise noisy playground. I had my doubts but now my mind has been made up that it's a good thing. Cheers for your earnest discussion.

# New Age: We take old shit and call it new shit

Well then I would ask that you adopt some fluidity in your interpretation because, if you allowed it, there is a way of viewing the whole idea that actually has some very beneficial possibilities.