Stigweard

LOL ... the way it's meant to be perhaps

Well the trouble there of course is you are only referring to one small part of Daoism, most likely the Orthodox Unity sect, aka Zhengyi 正一道.

Who are we kidding here. Not one of us is ultimately right. Every written truth will someday be untruth. We are all culprits of disinformation. This is just a big mess of cooperative mind-dumping. Thoughts, theories, egos, emotions and concepts squishing around in a great big, smelly muck-pit. But good compost grows lovely flowers.

What is not Dao? Everything. What is not Dao? Nothing. Dao is in spinning of a prayer wheel and the incense that rises. Dao is in arc of the assassins knife and the blood that falls. Yet in this infinite inclusiveness, is there a way to follow? Is there a path of preference? And yet if we designate a preference are we shattering the unity of Dao and thus our own unity? Thus are we destined to be lost, cast adrift like a Autumn leaf upon cascading waters? And yet in that bleak desolation do the currents reveal the way?

"Revival. Proceed without harm and with friends. The beginning of a new cycle comes on the seventh day. One is benefited by going somewhere." In this hexagram we see Earth over Thunder. At this time negative energy is beginning to decline and postive yang energy is returning. Thunder grows and breaks through all obstacles; even Earth cannot stop its explosive nature. This symbolizes revival and is a good time to gather supportive energy. The clap of "thunder beneath the earth" can also apply to the awakening of people who are in "hibernation" as a result of selfishness, narrow mindedness and negativity in order for the to return to the positive sphere. If one's motivation is correct, righteousness becomes the supporting power that can help one overcome obstacles and thus return to the natural path of life. The solid Yang line is like a seed beneath the earth. The essence within the shape or shell of the seed is the real root or "spirit" of life. Without spirit, there cannot be renewal, and without a peaceful environment, nothing can grow. At this stage of renewal, yang energy as the main life forceis weak. However, this position does not hinder one's progress. Remember that, when negative yin energy, which is an obstacle for the life force, reaches its extreme, it creates an opportunity for positive yang energy to return. Even though the renewal energy is weak at the moment, negativity is giving way to light. Ni Hua-ching

We will see ... one of the benefits of having it all together is because ... well ... its all together You would get more people's views on a topic, and in the cross-fire the topic would be explored completely. With a split-off section I am concerned that Daoist conversation will in fact become less on the forum, even though it will be more focused here. Change is good, and time will tell

The answer is yes. Referred to Fu Jyeo, they are more atuunements rather than prays per se. Here is one for daily use for enhancing personal energy: ------------------------- The Jade Emperor Heart Seal Sutra The three articles of supreme drugs for the elixir, are spirit, chi and essence. In a trance [i.e. in an flash and in an instant], (and) in deep obscurity, (by) keeping nothingness and holding to Being, instantaneously that is succeeded. (Then by) reverting wind (of breathing air) to blend, spiritual achievement (be gained) in a hundred days. (And) tacitly attend towards the Supreme Lord, ascension in one epoch [i.e. 12 years]. For the knower, (it is) easy to realize, (but) difficult for the ignorant to do so. Tread the morning twilight, nourish and refreshed by exhaling and inhaling (the morning fresh air). (Breathe) out Hsuan [i.e. collapse from nothingness to Being] and (breathe) in the (divine) feminine, (which) seems to decease (and yet) seems to exist, (and) continuing like a cotton thread, never ending, with firm stem (and) deep roots. Every man has essence. Essence (is) together with his spirit. Spirit (is) together with his chi. (With) chi together, (then) body (is) real. Not gaining this reality, (then) all are (just) imposed names. The spirit can penetrate stone. The spirit can fly beyond forms (of existence). Not getting drown in water, (and) not being burnt in fire. With spirit attached, forms (of existence) grow. With essence attached, chi (is) filled full. (Then forms of existence will) not wither (and) not be destroyed, like an evergreen pine or cypress tree. (This) one theory (for the) three articles, (is) too wondrous to be heard. (With) their gathering, then being (come to existence). (With) their scattering, then (existence is) nil. (When accomplished, the) seven apertures (will be) mutually connected, with each aperture enlightened. The holy sun and the holy moon, Note A (will) shine brightly (on) the golden [i.e. celestial] court. Once gained, (it is) forever gained, (and) naturally (the) body (will be) lightened. Supreme harmony (will) circumfuse, (and) the bones (will) disperse cold divine wine. Gaining the elixir, then spirituality (will be gained). Not gaining (it), then (life will) decline. The elixir inside the body, is neither white nor blue. Recite it for ten thousand times, (then this) wondrous theory (will be) understood automatically. http://webspace.webring.com/people/da/akrishi/taoism/jade.htm

Doing some of my own objective argumentation ... you mean you didn't notice??

I'll be honest ... I have no fricken idea. What I assume I know is so pitifully small and hopelessly distorted in comparison to the subtle universal truth that no one should ever ever listen to a word I say and I really should just STFU. Honest enough for ya?

Now THERE is some honesty!! Heheheh

Huh, wha?? Nah ... sorry ... got nothing for ya. Heheheh

Seeing the conversation is eddying around. Another thing to consider is that some styles are very contextualized with the society and landscape form which they emerged. As an example there are differences between Northern and Southern kungfu styles. Northern styles tend to be more fluid, using more mobility and includes more kicks. Southern styles are more grounded and compact, using more hand techniques. The reason for the differences is that the Northern folk tended to be taller and the population not as dense, whilst the Southern folks were smaller in stature and the population more dense thus any fighting was mostly in urban environments. There is also conjecture that the softer, internal styles emerged from the Northern areas whilst the harder, external styles emerged from the Southern areas. Again the social environment influenced this because in the South the frequency of conflict was much higher than that in the North (with the exception of the Mongolian wars). Thus in the South fighters had to get battle-ready much faster, thus the training was hard and the styles were hard. Soldiers weren't really expected to live past 30 anyway so intense body conditioning and physical endurance was the key. My first Kungfu was like this. Basically trained up pain-desensitized brutes that you could use as shock troops in battle. Whereas in the North, with less frequent conflict, martial artists could take longer to get up to battle-readiness thus they had more time to explore the internal arts. So the emphasis of whether you train hard or soft styles depends on your social environment. If you live in the Bronx then I would probably say that a hard-style is best. If you live, like me, in a peaceful regional city where the most violence we get is someone cutting in on you at the fuel bowser, then perhaps soft styles are more appropriate. And yes you also have to keep in mind your ongoing quality of life. The harder the style the more chance you are going to have arthritis and other physical problems as you age.

Probably looked sometin like this:

Of course you know that I agree with you in full

Beautiful Steve, a good thing I don't have a daily limit on hitting the +1 button This is another area that I would dispute the eficacy of the whole push and bounce opponents away thing. It violates the whole principle of Nian Lian Sui Bu Diu Ding 粘 黏 連 隨 不 丟 頂. From working a few doors I have drilled it into my head that I have to assume that my opponent might be carrying a knife. The very last thing I want to do is give him the opportunity to pull that knife, therefore I want to finish an opponent where he stands and him ending up on the ground at my feet. I do not want to push him away giving him the chance to reset or pull that knife. So fajin in my training is short-wave rather than long-wave, which sounds pretty much the same as your folks are doing. It is meant to break the core structure of opponent where they stand, not bounce them away. And its not meant to be the be all and end all of techniques, just meant to disrupt the structure and set up for other applications. Hurts like hell though when you get it right, my students have buckled me on more than one occaision when they hit a sweet spot. In terms of keeping contact, as long as one hand is in contact listening then the other can be coiling for fajin. Nice to hear more of your training Steve, always instructive

So based on this rationale, what would happen if you trained external and internal simultaneously?

TWIV, and I think it is quite clear that I am not just on a witchhunt to expose fakes and frauds. All I am interested in is investigating and revealing the truth around this whole low/no touch Fa Jin phenomena. And in a way that satisfies both left and right brain functions. Meaning that yes we can go and "feel it for ourselves" in a subjective sense. However, with the right pre-suggestions, people can convince themselves to believe anything. Some, as we have seen in these vids, quite literally "play out" the required effects to reinforce to themselves what they have chose to believe is true. And, once again shown by several of the vids I have posted, this belief comes terribly and sometimes painfully unraveled when the person tries to test their belief in the real world. So for efficacy we also must see whether these beliefs are practical in the world of objective analysis. This means either putting it into the context of what these abilities are intended for, i.e. full contact combat, or developing ways to test skills within controlled scientific environments. Now in terms of being disrespectful. There's two sides to that coin isn't there? If you are saying that it is disrespectful to the teacher for calling his abilities fake based only on an online video clip, isn't it therefore correspondingly "disrespectful" for these teachers and their groupies to be claiming their abilities are real based only on an online video clip? If you are saying that the "right thing to do" on my side of the coin is for me to go see the teacher in question to find out for myself, wouldn't the "right thing to do" of their side of the coin, i.e. those who are making public claims, be to offer up themselves and their skills for the appropriate testing and analysis. It's gotta go both ways my friend. You can't call me disrespectful for my behavior without simultaneously calling these teachers disrespectful for their behavior.

Cheers for that.

Officially going on my travel itinerary

Seriously??

I respect your comments Dawei, I still however feel confident that certain of these light/no touch fajin feats can be successfully tested. We will see where this leads. Interesting indeed that your teacher would recommend Systema. That's officially the third recommendation from the Taiji world that I have heard of. It's why I am training now under Australia's main instructor Andrew Seyderhelm and am passing it on to my students. Also interestingly unfortunate that the clips you posted included footage of Vadim Starov. Apparently he only trained with Mikhail Ryabko and Vladimir Vasiliev for a short while before trying to make a name for himself. The results were pretty disastrous: http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMTQ1NzA0OTky.html Every style needs to be tested

Heya Mike, I will take your word on what you are saying And if you ever, ever see me making any sort of superior martial arts claim then I beg you to be the first to smack me up the side of the head and demand that I prove myself in full combat. Deal? So all is good right? Cool ... back to the pool table then ... your break if I recall

Critical thinking time. I'd like to reveal something that I "learned" during my Yang family training. My teacher was a student of Master Chu King Hung, present-day 3rd disciple of the Yang Family and student of Master Yang Shou-chung. Right from the start of training the student is indoctrinated into learning how to be pushed "properly". And I will show you examples of this in the videos below. When we did our fajin testing the person being pushed was trained to receive the push in a very certain way. We were told to lock our structure together and yield to the push, it was what could be called an abiding or compliant resistance rather than true resistance. It is introduced under the guise of fajin testing, giving the person practicing a feeling of opposition but not too much to oppose them completely. It was like a bio-feedback, the further back the person gets pushed the more fajin was produced. It is only meant to test that the pusher's structure and coordination is right. Often though were we admonished for "not resisting properly" meaning we didn't lock our structure together properly and we didn't comply to the push enough. Looking at these videos now I can see how this has permeated the curriculum of modern Taiji training so much that these folks are actually using this fajin training technique as a way to somehow prove some sort of special ability. Have a careful look at the arms and structure of the students in this video: In every single push do you see how the student locks their structure? In some cases you can even see where the student has actually pushed themselves off the teacher's push That is exactly how we were drilled to receive our teachers fajin and each others fajin in practice. All it is is a training practice, but these teachers are now ludicrously making it into so much more. Go to 2:39 in this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3CHCJjKjwMk&feature=player_embedded Notice that one of Micheal's pushes didn't go quite right? He then admonished the other chap twice, "Don't lose your structure". That is EXACTLY what my teacher would say if we didn't resist in the "right" way. It means the other chap hadn't locked his structure correctly for the fajin to push him away in the "right" way. LOL this is all just a classic symptom of what happens when you insulate yourself from having your style pressure tested by mixing it with other styles and in non-compliant combat scenario. Here's the end result of such group indoctrination (get through the first talky stuff to the demo):