Stigweard

fiveelementtao, Ahh ... I get it, you are one of these chaps that is claiming special Qi skills that gives you superior combat abilities. Now that changes the context of our conversation entirely doesn't it? It explains both your opposition to what I am suggesting and the manner in which you are doing it. You are doing exactly what these other chaps have done when I directed my straight-forward question to them ... they tried to establish that there must be something wrong with the person asking. In their case they assumed that I must be some sort of rookie noob who doesn't have the necessary experience or correct training. And now here you are trying to discredit my inquiry by trying to set me up as being "full of anger". Really Mike?? How dare you project onto me like that. You sure it's not your own anger you are detecting here?? Perhaps its your turn to take a moment and reflect on your intent here. I very much take exception to your insinuations here Mike. Continue that line of accusation and I can assure you that our discussion here will become very much less civil. And I think you need to reexamine what you are advising. You are basically saying that we should ignore left-brain function and only rely on right-brain function. Essentially saying that we should ignore critical thinking and objectivity and only rely on intuition and subjectivity. Sorry to point this out but if we only required half a brain to reach the full potential of human existence we would have only been born with half a brain. The fact is that we have 2 halfs in our brains and I think it is a fair comment to say that we really should be using both sides to be a wholesome individual. So I am declaring your "it's all right brain" theory nonsense and a prohibition to effective inquiry. You have to have a balance of both critical thinking and intuitive feeling. Too much reliance or emphasis either way and you will not embrace the whole truth of the matter. If it seems I am leaning too heavily in the critical thinking direction it's only because the pendulum is currently swinging too far in the "right brain" direction. And in terms of your lethal combat test being the only legitimate laboratory. I wonder if you have really thought this through. If that is the case then every single clip on the web, including yours, are fake and phony. Because not a single one of them are shown in lethal combat scenarios. And have you applied your "skills" in lethal combat Mike where someone was trying to end your life?? I am willing to lay odds that you haven't, in that case you only have your blind faith that your skills are real. Are you willing to risk your life on something that you have no tested proof of being effective Mike? It would seem you are taking this extreme position as yet another way to excuse yourself from being accountable for the claims you are promoting. And please don't give me this dishonesty of you saying that you are not promoting anything. All I have to do is look at your signature and the vids you post on YouTube to see that you are making promotional claims of "super-powered" martial ability. Previously I wasn't challenging you, but now that I can see your intent clearer in this conversation then, yes Mike, I now most certainly am. So here it is Mike, can you please show a demonstration of you using your skills either in full contact combat or in a scientific environment that is consistent with the protocol outlined in the OP?

You obviously are not getting what I am pursuing here. I am not just out and out calling all these chaps "fakers", though there is one or two who have already been confirmed as such. I have enough experience in mystic phenomena to believe this potential of human capability. What I am calling for is a long overdue project of investigation that involves some critical thinking and scientific evidence. And videos on the net mean diddly squat, no arguments there. They neither prove nor disprove a thing. That's why my focus is for these "skills" to be shown either in full contact combat or double-blind experimentation. Regardless of your main point of "disrespect", it is intrinsic in the martial arts field that people who call themselves master will be challenged. If you wanted to set up a school you would jump up on the Lei Tai podium and announce your supreme skill to all and then accept all challengers who stepped up with you. If you cleaned up or at least performed well enough you were entitled to set up a school. If not then piss off and go to another town/province. Now these chaps are announcing their supreme skill across the web with their little videos, by doing so they are stepping up onto the Lei Tai podium. But are they accepting challengers? No not at all. As soon as anyone calls their bluff they carry on with all the BS that I have outlined so far, and now I can add a new excuse to the list which is your "you can't be disrespectful" dialogue. Again back to The Emperor's New Clothes, you are saying that the boy who asks the obvious is being disrespectful for doing so. I am intensely happy that our media isn't censured by the ideology that you are carrying on with, imagine journalists not being permitted to ask the rich and powerful some "disrespectful" questions. Imagine our health industry being able to make claims whilst also claiming immunity from investigative research and accountability. The implication of what you are saying is that these internal martial arts chaps have a privileged place that is immune to accountability, inquiry, and scientific research. You are implying that they can make all the claims they want without recourse, that they don't have to show a single thread of evidence to substantiate their claims. And you are trying to oppose my attempts to make an objective inquiry on the basis that I am being "disrespectful". I am not "mud-slinging", I am just asking a very straight forward question: Can you please demonstrate this Fajin (the sort of little or not touch) either in a full contact combat situation or a double-blind scientific environment? Fairly straight forward to me.

Its responses like this that keeps me coming back to this place. Its taught me to trust confrontation, to trust turbulence because amazing stuff can emerge from the dust. Look at the last posted video and you will see what, for the moment, I am focusing on. Now would you call this Fa Jin or Fa Qi in your books? Because these proponents are saying that it is Fa Jin but it is definitely verging on Fa Qi (again using your definitions). Why am I doing this? Thanks for asking, thanks for making me reflect for a moment Obviously there are a few reasons. But digging past the personal feelings that I obviously have on the matter, the prevalent motivation is "clarity". Now you know me fairly well and you would have frequently seen me launch into a topic for the sole purpose of bouncing my thoughts off other people to gain a clearer picture. Maybe my view will be different by the end of the thread, maybe they wont. But at least I will have a clearer view on the whole picture because everyone is pitching in causing me to reflect on my view, just like your comments have. So if we brought it all back to me, I am wanting clarity on this whole issue of fajin i.e. the fajin that these chaps are carrying on with. On a purely selfish level I am wanting to decide if that sort of training is something I want to engage in, but if it truly is just all BS, and nothing has convinced me otherwise thus far, then I will just keep on my merry way with my current training. On a less selfish level I certainly would like to see some clarity out in the Taiji world around this. People are getting ripped off and suckered in daily and the whole mess really does give this fine tradition the smell of last weeks underwear. So instead of all the ambiguousness and misinformation, I would just like to have some simple clarity that everyone can enjoy. And just me, or anyone for that matter, saying "Hey guys I felt it and it works" is simply not good enough. Which brings me back to the question, can anyone please show this stuff in full contact combat or in a scientific environment? If you can't then this sort of fajin is at best just a pointless waste of time. Excuse my directness Mike, but could you pass the test in the OP with your skills?? If not, why not? But I certainly have appreciated your comments as a stimulus to stop me for a second to review my thoughts.

Thanks for the initiative. What would have to be worked out is something that would fulfill a few basic requirements: It must be respectfully done. The intent is to gather research data not to go on a witchhunt. A bunch of chaps running in shouting "Show me what you can do" is obviously not going to be received overly well. It must be scientifically done, meaning it must conform as close as possible to the protocol in the OP. This protocol would be hard to fulfill in the "go and visit" format so adjustments need to be made. But it still must maintain enough objectivity to reasonably eliminate distortion. Specifically the items listed under Stipulations in the OP must be adhered to. It must be documented. Both video and written accounts of the visit. OK ... awesome ... Dawei is in ... any other bums want to play ???

Here's an excellent article on Fa Jin as purely a physical ability trained and honed over many years: How to Do Fa-Jing --Issuing Energy -- in Tai Chi, Hsing-I and Bagua Very much like ... +1

Not ignored, just didn't get to in amongst the other stuff. Apologies if you have taken offense of my oversight. In terms of visiting and evaluating, absolutely. I am in Oz though so I think there are a only a relatively small few hereabouts I can get to. I am planning to visit US in the next 18mths though. In terms of no result from these efforts, well there is something starting to roll. Hopefully more will be revealed in the soonest of time. You are in US right? Which part?

The Way Is Virtue, Your words are very lovely but are laced with the supposition that my inquiry is disrespectful. Is it really? All I am asking is the very straight-forward request for someone like Michael Phillips to demonstrate the sort of Fa Jin shown below either in full contact or in a scientific environment. Not to discredit or disrepute, but for the greater learning and credibility of Taijiquan as a martial art. How hard is that? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3CHCJjKjwMk&feature=player_embedded You talk about respect. Well how respectful is it for these teachers to charge big money for classes and workshops for a service where they cannot substantiate the claims they are making?? In Australia this is not just disrespectful to customers, its actually ILLEGAL to sell a product or service if you can't scientifically verify the claims you are making. So you are saying that if I was "respectful" I should go study with one of these teachers with the blind faith that they can do what they claim, and spend the required amount of years and money cowtowing enough times so that they can bestow their beneficence upon me and eventually show me a personal demonstration. Really? How would you have felt if after all years in training you ended up like those in the videos I posted here: http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?/topic/19775-example-protocol-to-test-fa-jin-ability/page__view__findpost__p__280103 How pissed would you be discovering that you have just wasted 5 years of your life because you were "respectfully" following the master? I call that a recipe for delusion and also a recipe for having your ass handed to you on the street. You see these poor suckers in the videos bouncing around like jackasses going "ohhh my teacher is sooo powerful he is the real deal". Like it or not but group hypnosis is a real phenomena and at best that is all that is going on in these demonstrations. Remember the story, "The Emperor's New Clothes" ?? An Emperor who cares for nothing but his appearance and attire hires two tailors who promise him the finest suit of clothes from a fabric invisible to anyone who is unfit for his position or "just hopelessly stupid". The Emperor cannot see the cloth himself, but pretends that he can for fear of appearing unfit for his position; his ministers do the same. When the swindlers report that the suit is finished, they mime dressing him and the Emperor then marches in procession before his subjects, who play along with the pretense. Suddenly, a child in the crowd, too young to understand the desirability of keeping up the pretense, blurts out that the Emperor is wearing nothing at all and the cry is taken up by others. The Emperor cringes, suspecting the assertion is true, but holds himself up proudly and continues the procession. Tell me The Way Is Virtue, is the child being "disrespectful"? Or are they just pointing out the plain truth? If I followed your advice I would just go along with the mass delusion so that I didn't offend the high poobar.

Ahh yes ... the ol' excuse of "we can't show it because we might hurt someone so we will only show it on our own students who have "trained" to receive it." Yeah they used that one as well. Oh and this one: "I will participate in your experiment if you either pay me lots of money or make it a major media event." >.<

A balanced view which I agree with

What makes you think I haven't approached them directly? In fact I have asked Michael Phillips and others of his ilk directly to either show demonstrations of him using his "Fa Jin" in full contact or consider engaging in the experiment in the OP. The response(s)? Well firstly there were the usual: ~ Science can't measure Fa Jin etc. Well that is BS because, whilst we haven't the instrumentation to measure Qi directly, we can most certainly measure the effects and the Qigong Institute is laying an awesome foundation of research in this direction. Then there was the usual: ~ You have to feel it for yourself to prove it Sorry but this is not proof of any sort. I have made a living of making people believe the impossible (I am a professional magician and mentalist) and it is shockingly easy for someone to fool themselves into believing a lie. Then our esteemed "masters" attempted some character assination firstly about my age then about my lineage. When they could not get any traction there they kicked me from the FB group I will however give a shout out of respect to Adam Mizner who was the only one who approached the discussion in a productive manner.

Well if Mr Phillips is the "REAL Fah Jing" perhaps he should show his stuff in full contact fighting or at the least in the test I have put forward in the OP ... rather than just push about folks who are obviously compliant.

Interesting insinuations there CD. May I ask where you are going with this?

Contrasting distinctly to Dr Yang Jwing Ming who says that at all times one must maintain a sense of enemy. I personally agree. By putting every move in the context of being in interaction with a non-abiding opponent correct posture and intent comes about. Nearly every time a student is struggling with a move I show them how it could be applied in a martial situation, has proven to help 6000%. I think the fundamental reason why these chaps who think they can bounce people off with just their Qi have fallen into that delusion is because they have omitted full-contact work from their training. Bottom-line ... Taiji is a fighting art ... keep it in that context.

Another example of what Taiji ends up looking like in full contact: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mNLJFEpBoAk And I always love watching Cung Le fight. This is just a demonstration:

I don't think they are very particularly extraordinary either.

The only clip on the net that I could find for full contact Taiji: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWWYliy3PgQ

And another way of looking at it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kf44kawWBvY&feature=related

Just posting these up for comparison: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxxebP0u31g

Yup. Why do you ask??

Too numerous to talk about in full. Just keep regulating body, breath and mind and those "experiences" will look after themselves in the right order.

Personally I choose to neither believe nor disbelieve but let evidence with a good degree of critical thinking speak for itself.

And we could always apply some critical thinking to these as well: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NSkujscyFVQ&feature=related People are so desperate to believe