Stigweard

Master Moy's Tai Chi serves a purpose, it gives the mainstream an opportunity to have a taste of Taoist culture and get some health benefits from their form. Just keep in mind that any practice can lead to integration if the student has the right intent. In saying this though there is no question that "Taoist Tai Chi" has very much diluted the traditional practice and is a perfect example of what can happen as authentic practices get filtered through to the west. It can and has very much created a distortion around what Tai Chi is and what Daoism is. One of the problems is that Master Moy deliberately removed any reference and practical application of martial arts. The result is that their stances have become too narrow and unbalanced and they operate too much from the upper body; they don't learn to connect and coordinate the body properly which pressured contact work builds. The create no Jin, no power. So if you take it for what it is, i.e. a westernized calisthenic exercise with Daoist flavoring, then it's all good. Just don't confuse it with authentic traditional Taijiquan.

Agreed, agreed, agreed.

And how would us Daoists keep the Buddhists in check if they had their own section??? Hehehehehe!!! Sorry ... Mr Marbles made me say it!

Learn the Dao of the body first. The Dao of Qi is merely a natural extension of this. By this I mean learn how the body naturally moves. Learn Tai Chi or if that is unavailable learn Kung Fu or even dance. Learn the natural relaxation and grace of the body - this will get your mind right to handle energy properly. Too many people, and we see them all the time here, try and jump in and "feel energy" way too soon. It's actually relatively easy to experience the energy body, but what happens when you haven't connected with the body properly is that you bring all your artificial thinking into the world of Qi and you start sending it in all the wrong directions in your ignorant attempts to "make it do something." So learn to be ziran, natural and spontaneous, in your body first. Connect your breathing with your movements then Qi will happen all by itself. I would recommend anyone not to try and frig around with their "energy" until they have achieved this basic foundation.

Same Too many divisions already.

Huzzah!!!

You don't see the profound implication that this chapter is all about water?? That's ok. It works for me and brings the chapter to life IMO.

I count 5 implicit references to water in this chapter: Title: 源 = 氵(water) + 原 Line 1: 沖 = 氵(water) + 中 Line 1: 盈 = overflowing container again implying water Line 2: 淵 = 氵(water) + yuān Line 7: 湛 = 氵(water) + 甚 Thus I can with confidence say that lines 3-6 must also be water-natured; that they are describing properties of water that are synonymously properties of Dao. Hence: 3 It erodes sharpness [like water], 4 It dissolves obstruction [like water], 5 It softens glare [like water], 6 It settles dust [like water]. If you read lines 3-6 within this context they are very relevant to the overall chapter.

You would be wanting to talk with Michael Lomax aka Ya Mu. Contact him via his profile: http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?/user/23729-ya-mu/

The Significance of Virtue The Daoist concept of 'Virtue'1 is rich in meaning. Generally speaking, Virtue and Dao are reciprocal concepts. In the fifty-first chapter of the Laozi, it is said that "Dao begets all things, and Virtue fosters them." Dao is the fundamental origin of all beings, while Virtue is the reflection of Dao in all beings. Dao is formless and imageless; Virtue, as the manifestation of Dao in all concrete things, is also formless. Therefore Daoists often refer to Dao and Virtue as a single concept, and consider them to be absolutely void and still, and the ultimate abstruse Ancestor of all beings. Virtue is the attainment of Dao As the reflection of Dao in all beings, Virtue can be said to be each concrete being's attainment of Dao. In the Pivotal Meaning of the Daoist Doctrine2 by Meng Anpai of the Tang dynasty, it is said that Virtue is attainment, and is the opposite of loss of Dao. For this reason, Virtue and the sometimes-used concept of 'Dao-Nature'3 are identical. Dao is omnipresent and all creatures have Dao-Nature. In the Book of Master Zhuang4, it is said that Dao is 'omnipresent', and can be found in mole crickets and ants, in bricks and tiles, in stools and urine. Whether it be the most spiritual of men or the most debased of things, everything has Dao. In the Book of Western Ascension5, it is said that "Dao is not only in me; all beings have it". This Dao-Nature reflected by all beings is Virtue. Virtue is the effect of Dao Virtue is the reflection of Dao, and Dao is the root of Virtue. From this perspective, we can say that the effect of Dao on the nurturing and ordering of all beings is played out through Virtue. Dao is Emptiness6 and governs Non-Being7, while Virtue exists in all concrete things and governs Being8. Of course, we are here not separating Dao and Virtue into two separate things, but merely reflecting on different situations and functions. Fundamentally speaking, Virtue and Dao are but two aspects of a single category. Hence, the first scroll of the Pivotal Meaning of the Daoist Doctrine quotes Master Xuanqing as saying that "Dao and Virtue are two significances of a single reality. They are one but not one, two but not two." Looking at their functions and effects, they are different and thus two, but as different expressions of the same reality, they are not two. In the same way, they are both one, but owing to their different functions, they are not one. Zhongyu, Liu. Translator: David Palmer. Taoist Culture and Information Centre. Accessed 17 March 2009. <http://eng.taoism.org.hk/daoist-beliefs/gr...o/pg2-1-2-1.htm> So the options for discussion: What does everyone think of the comments: ~ "Dao begets all things, and Virtue fosters them." ~ "Virtue is the reflection of Dao, and Dao is the root of Virtue." Can the virtue of Dao and the virtue of man be one and the same? Or is there a irreconcilable difference between the virtue of Dao and the virtue of man? Are humans intrinsically virtuous but we have been conditioned otherwise OR are we intrinsically immoral and require codes of ethics or morals taught to us? Can human behavior ever be considered "natural"? If a human is acting according to their acquired world view and conditioned beliefs, is this acting according to their nature? Is there such a thing as the True Nature of an individual? And if so what is the relationship between True Nature and conditioned nature? Dig in folks ... tallyho!

Well said TM ... my experience would concur with yours.

These lines only seem to be "out of context" if you overlook the context that the chapter is very implicitely likening Dao to the qualities of water. 3 It erodes sharpness [like water], 4 It dissolves obstruction [like water], 5 It softens glare [like water], 6 It settles dust [like water]. http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?/topic/16267-stigweards-daodejing-%26%2336947%3B%26%2324503%3B%26%2332147%3B/page__view__findpost__p__269460

Chapter Four -- Without Source Dao flows forth, And yet its capacity is never exhausted. So fathomless, It seems to be the ancestor of all things. It erodes sharpness, It dissolves obstruction, It softens glare, It settles dust. So deep, it seems not to exist. I don’t know whose offspring it is, It appears to precede the first cause. Stigweard's Daodejing 道德經 Original Text: Translator's Notes and Commentary:

Introduction: Firstly it should be noted that, though I have endeavored to stay as close to the original text as possible, this is not a literal translation of the Daodejing. I have chosen to translate the characters in a way that helps portray my view of the implied message that Laozi is delivering. Acknowledged also is that the lucidity of this implied message is totally dependent on my own understanding of Daoist principles and my particular view of the world. To deepen your own understanding you should always read other translations of Laozi as well as attempting your own translation. Index: Chapter One -- Embodying Dao Chapter Two -- Nourishing Life Chapter Three -- Peaceful People Chapter Four -- Without Source ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Acknowledgments: In rendering my translation I have made extensive use of these websites: Chinese Etymology Home Page YellowBridge Chinese Language and Culture Laozi Daodejing Siegelschrift - Sealscript 老子 道德經 篆書 - Laotse Taoteking Learn Chinese Characters 老 子「道 德 經」Tao Te Ching in Big 5 LaoTze DaoDeJing [Tao Te Ching] Chinese text Roget's Thesaurus (1911) - The ARTFL Project Thesaurus.com | Find Synonyms and Antonyms of Words at Thesaurus.com Online Etymology Dictionary I have also made comparative analysis with several Daodejing translations: Tao Te Ching by Lao Tzu [Dao De Jing by Lao Zi] Derek Lin's Translation of the Tao Te Ching Terebess Asia Online - TAO LaoTze - TaoDeJing The Complete Works of Lao Tzu -- Ni Hua Ching

Chapter Four -- Without Source Dao flows forth, And yet its capacity is never exhausted. So fathomless, It seems to be the ancestor of all things. It erodes sharpness, It dissolves obstruction, It softens glare, It settles dust. So deep, it seems not to exist. I don’t know whose offspring it is, It appears to precede the first cause. Original Text: Translator's Notes and Commentary: ^ Back to index ^

Yes on a simple level I sometimes get the intuitive thought of "This is like Hexagram so and so", it will give me some insight into the situation and will give me a direction to move to create/maintain harmony. For example just recently with my work our team won the best performing team (which got us free tickets to the State of Origin football match). Now through my work with the I Ching I know that every high point is followed by a low point, so we are advised not to overly celebrate or dwell on the high points because this excess may exacerbate or compound the subsequent declines. So I deliberately didn't go "over the top" with excitement about our win. Interestingly our results in the month since this win has dropped off significantly and I have watch as other team members have despaired over it but, because I was anticipating it, I have taken it in my stride and just got on with the job. Likewise we should not catastrophize the low points. My team leader will often fret over the times I don't hit my performance targets and she gets frustrated when I respond with a smile and say "it's all good." By not accentuating the high points or catastrophizing the low points we moderate the extremes in our life. In terms of how do you recognise which hexagrams are "in the air", this only comes through doing many castings and reflecting on how they "fit" with the situations. Both. There are a number of commentaries. I resonate best with Ni Hua Chings'. But there is symbolic power and wisdom in the Hexagrams. Study and practice will reveal this. If you look at the following topic you will see some of my musings in this regard: http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?/topic/18594-the-alchemy-of-taijiquan

I would say the Tao Teh Ching would be an obvious choice

Thank you Shontonga and thelearner for your kind comments. Thanks also for the gentle reminder that I have to get back to this project.

This is sublime and perfect, totally reflecting part of my current journey. Thank you _/\_

LOL ... exactly !!!

Thanks for this topic. It's very relevant to me at the moment and I would like to use it to stream some thoughts. There is always the discussion, especially on a Daoist forum, about whether or not having "goals" is a "good" thing or not. The reason being is that there seems to be some contradiction between the idea of Wu Wei, aka not doing, and the idea of planning or aiming for a predetermined outcome. It's a fair point and I can't say I have fully decided my final landing point in the discussion. However, if you do have goals or aspirations then you need to get leverage on yourself. By this I mean you need to identify what gets you naturally inspired to take action. Now some goal setting processes talk about linking rewards to the achievement of goals, for example: If I get this monthly sales figure I will treat myself to a holiday. Now this may work for some, but not for me personally. Other systems may create progress charts to show the progress made. Again this is about as boring as bat shit to me. Now just this morning I have had a bit of an epiphany of sorts ... I am a showman. By this I mean that I am literally a performing artist who has played his hand at professional stage fighting, fire dancing, swordfighting, magician, seminar presenter, ring announcing, master of ceremonies etc. etc. What motivates me to excell is the thrill of an upcoming performance ... I love the stress and pressure of making sure the event is an outstanding success. And I get fired up by the fear of public embarrasment if I screw up. But I have to admit that I have tripped myself up by comparing my peacock nature with the Daoist ideals of humility and not placing oneself first in the world. It would seem I have robbed myself of my personal Ziran by trying to conform to a conceptual model of virtue which is not the "high virtue" of Wu Wei that Laozi advocates. But the simple truth is ... I am a showman, I am a peacock who likes to show my colours. For example I have wanted to get myself back into the ripped physique I once had several years ago. But none of the "motivational systems" had really fired me up. So, if I was to enmesh this goal with my showmanship tendancies than what I really should do is produce an event that necessitates me to have physique I want. Examples: ~ Martial Arts workshop with my old dojhang ~ Training DVDs for both Taijiquan and Martial Arts Hmmm ... nice ... thanks for providing the space for my ramblings.

Agreed in full!! Immortal4life you have officially become an evangelizing troll whose delusional proselytizing has officially entered the category of spam and should be treated as such by the moderators. Please go find another forum that is more compatible with your tripe.

Bahahaha ... the nostalgic memories of a lost youth must be entertaining for an old man yes ??