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Dorian, once again you are only exemplifying the attitude and behavior of those that know they are unable to prove their claims in the real world. Obviously you need to learn to read better because, in relation to the Michael Phillips expose, in this post I quite clear said: "I will emphasize though that this is still only anecdotal evidence so no concrete conclusions can be made ... further testing would be required " You are now desperately grasping for every and any straw to find your "guru" a backdoor out of the bind you have put him in. You came in puffed up with your own self-importance claiming that Gary would take on all comers. You asked me directly, "will you test Gary's powers personally and then report the results here?" My response was and still is "100% YES !!" ... and I have even given you, and him an exact outline of how that test should be conducted in order to yield credible evidence. That link again: https://www.facebook.com/groups/thefajinproject/permalink/421119781260416/ Now Dorian you are scrambling backwards looking for the exit sign, still spitting your insults. But still you haven't come anywhere near answering the pivotal question: "Why is there not a single scrap of credible evidence that Gary's "fajin" works for real (i.e. in real combat or at the very least in a controlled scientific environment)?"

I would just like to point out here that it was you, Dorian, who have jumped all over this thread doing your little "Gary! Gary" cheer-leader routine. You threw down the challenge of "Come and test Gary!" ... and I have responded directly that I would, or I would get someone close to test, but I will do so in the only way where credible evidence will be provided (i.e. the testing protocol provided on Facebook). It was YOU who told me to contact Gary directly ... I have done so. And now you are trying to say that it is me clamoring for attention ?? Thank you at the very least for providing a living example of how all these so-called "masters" and their groupies are behaving: Spamming videos of them performing fake fajin, Charging lots of money for teaching their "secret method", Getting students to provide anecdotal stories, Threaten any people who query the authenticity of their "power" with threats of violence, Challenge anyone to come and "feel it themselves" but only on their terms, Insult and deride all who keep questioning, Run away when confronted with the challenge to prove it in a "real" environment, offering one hundred different "exit clauses". Well done !! Warm Regards, Stuart Shaw

Well if your argument was "valid" I would give it credence ... but all you have done is spammed some stories (again anecdotal stories are not credible evidence), and a couple of lame vids of Gary doing nothing special, and a video of Michael Phillips which is irrelevant firstly because he is only doing his "fajin" on preconditioned students and secondly because he has been shown up to be unable to back up his claims when tested.

LOL ... well I am "talking" with Gary directly now on Facebook ... we shall see where this goes. https://www.facebook.com/groups/thefajinproject

Ahh ... the old "its too dangerous" exit clause. I shall repeat myself ... please show a single video, just one will do, where Gary has demonstrated his "Jing" in real combat or at the very least in a controlled scientific environment. Please.

Accept that it has been revealed that this "powerful fajin" requires compliance from the student for it to work. They are pre-conditioned to use whats called the "sparrow hop", they are also preconditioned to lock their frame up in whats called "the bronze man". Add in the fact that they are so desperate to believe in "super powers" and you have the recipe for every "fajin demo" being spammed about on Youtube. Show me a video of Michael, Gary, Adam, Huang, Chu, Wang, or any other "fajin master" performing this on someone other than their students and I just might give your verbosity some credence.

You can spam your posts all you want ... but the bottom line is that anecdotal evidence is not credible evidence. You have managed to fill up a great amount of content, but you have still been unable to answer this question: "Why is there not a single scrap of credible evidence that this Subtle Jin works for real (i.e. in real combat or at the very least in a controlled scientific environment)?" Your "stories", your videos of MP, Gary or whoever are not credible evidence. Period. Again, there is a testing protocol that I have provided on Facebook for any "master" with the testicular fortitude to prove their "schtick". Why haven't I heard from Gary yet seeing he does have a FB account ?? https://www.facebook.com/groups/thefajinproject/doc/421119777927083/

Well let me lead by example and provide proof to my claims: These are excerpts from a rather lengthy diatribe between these two esteemed characters held here: https://www.facebook.com/groups/TheKwoon/ A shame Michael took his rather lengthy formal denouncement of Ray down, was an "interesting" read. In Ray's last comment, the Mastadon reference was about Don Miller fronting up to Michael at the previously mentioned seminar with Michael completely failing to produce anything remotely resembling his "fajin". This comment was directly made from Ray at Michael: "I'd rather remain ignorant then have to put up with a scared little germaphobic, paranoid, greedy used car salesmen" https://www.facebook.com/groups/TheKwoon/permalink/508104055894540/ Now you can understand what I am laughing so damn hard that Ray continues to promote Michael on his site !!! OK Dorian ... your turn to share. Please show me one singe scrap of credible evidence that Gary can produce fajin.

ROFL !!! I love watching "believers" stretch and grasp trying to desperately say, "Aha !! Got you!!" Here is my statement: "In other words we are trying to replicate exactly the example shown in Michal Phillips' demonstration." Credible evidence is attained when results from a method can be replicated under a controlled environment. Michael Phillips, and others, have listed down their stipulations of what "their fajin" should and should not look like. I have collected and collated these stipulations into a testing protocol so that, when we examine the video footage of the test, we can tick all the boxes that the stipulations have been met. That is exactly what my statement means. Yup and I am still splitting my sides laughing over this ... obviously Ray needs to talk with his webmaster. Michael Phillips has very publicly denounced Ray Abeyta and has formally severed all connections with him. Actually the rather long winded public statement went quite a bit further than that, even into an interesting character assessment They have since waged rather "colorful" flame wars on each other on Facebook. I can show you links, but again you need a FB account

Excuse me for taking this back to the OP, and please excuse the appearance of speaking "against" other people's views, but I would like to return to the point that we need to be very grounded and pragmatic in our approach to "power" in the internal martial arts. Too readily, it would seem to me, people are wanting to believe in something special ... they would prefer the faith-belief in a fantasy rather just embracing plain old reality as it is. Tai Chi Chuan, for example, is such an exquisitely beautiful and philosophically rich art that you could study the fundamental principles your whole life and never once have to mention Qi or Shen or any other mystic concept. Please don't read this as me advocating against these terms or concepts, I am merely pointing out that there is massive corpus of knowledge to embody as a prerequisite before even starting to consider the deeper metaphysics. Sung gong, Daolu, Chan Si Jin, Wu Gong, Yin/Yang, Wu Xing, Bagua applications, Tui Shou, Da Lu, etc. Shi San Shi, the thirteen postures, including Bai Men, the eight gates, and Wu Bu, the five steps, Wai Jins like: duan jin – breaking power, chuang jin – ramming power, cun jin – one inch power, dou jin – shaking power, chong jin – charging power, etc. Nei Jins like: chen jin – sinking power, ting jin - listening power, zhan jin – adhering power, nian jin – sticking power, sui jin – following power, etc. Si Zheng Tui Shou, the four hands of push hands, Peng, Lu, Ji, An, Using all the above in Fangshen/San Shou, fighting application: Da - Striking, Ti - Kicking, Na - Grappling, Shuai - Wrestling. Crikey !!! That is a good 10 to 20 years of training right there, and all of it can be learned without the crazy talk of "super powers". My point here, and my point in the original article, is that Taijiquan on it's own and without "decoration" is "enough", and personally I would much prefer an ontology grounded in pragmatic reality.

Heya Jeff, Perhaps you are getting an insight into what I have been dealing with for the last few years with this "project" Whilst getting clarity on "what fajin should look like", I have been diligent to get agreement from "those that do it". Here then is a "Definition of Subtle Fajin" that we are using in the aforementioned testing protocol: specifically does not rely upon nor adhere to Newton's Second Law of Force (i.e. Force = Mass x Acceleration), with the demonstrator standing with feet parallel with someone at least their own size facing them in a well-rooted stance of their choice (e.g. classical bow stance etc.), the demonstrator can instantly shear the opponent off their feet, both feet clear off the ground in a single moment, and send him backwards 3-4 feet. Both feet lift off the ground at the same time and land and the same time. whilst there may be a visible "pulse-wave" passing thru the body-system, if the demonstrator's elbows accelerates forward and follows the trajectory of the opponent as he is thrown backwards, what has just occurred is definitely NOT "Subtle Fajin", to reemphasize, the wrists and elbows of the person issuing "Subtle Fajin" do not follow the opponent, as they would if one were merely "pushing" with the muscles, does not use the physical force generated by agonist (prime mover) muscle contraction (that is typical of ordinary forms of movement) beyond some absolute minimum amount that is required to keep the body structure together and upright, no discernible tension in one's shoulders, elbows, or wrists that would signify the use of muscular engagement to produce the force, the subject (i.e. the person being pushed) shows no sign of initiating their reactive movement, i.e. there is no sign of the subject pushing with their legs that would imply a "jump" backwards, nor pushing back off the Demonstrator's arms with their hands. Most of these terms are the very words of folks like Michael Phillips, Adam Mizner etc. themselves. I have merely collected and collated them through the extensive "discussions" I had directly with these "teachers" and then got confirmation from them that these details are correct. The earlier list of stipulations is to ensure that the requisites of this definition are adhered to. Personally I would not even consider the credibility of test unless it used conformed to those stipulations. I will emphasize here though that no confidence could be garnered from you visiting Garry in terms of evidence one way or the other due to in not being in a controlled environment and the procedure would be a very long way from being a double-blind protocol. Quite specifically I would not let him touch any other part of your body accept your forearms, or as I indicated, you touching his forearms. In other words we are trying to replicate exactly the example shown in Michal Phillips' demonstration. Adhering to "fajin theory", that is all the touch required to transfer "jin" in the way that is claimed. http://youtu.be/FZf5efMQqwY

Heya Ya Mu, I appreciate your thoughts here ... I do think though that even you have missed the main purpose and intent of the FB group and my motivation. If I can ask for your consideration here I will try and explain... Like it or not, there are frauds and charlatans infesting the internal martial arts world and they are dominating the airwaves with what is no less than unsubstantiated delusions and scams. As such arts like Taijiquan have stagnated and fallen behind the other martial arts in the world ... no longer can Taijiquan be heralded as the "supreme ultimate fist". Self-styled "masters" are making any damn claim they want to because it is part of the "culture" that they have immunity from verifying such claims. Thus we have literally dozens upon dozens of "methods" being bandied about as the "real deal" ... the collective "message" being broadcast to the world is that "we" are bunch of clowns, charlatans, and whackjobs. From the very outset all I have done is ask a very simple and straightforward question: "Where is the proof? Where is the credible evidence that the method you are prescribing is real and reliable?" You would think that there would be an easy answer to this question ... but no, all I have ever received, instead of straight answers, was the carry on as exampled in this thread. Fajin "believers", in place of reasonable discussion and transparency, seem to inevitably resort to bully-boy responses and personal attacks. But after all the bluster, the original question remains unanswered. And so we gave that question a home on Facebook, and we have invited numerous "masters" to come in and answer that question. Invariably they will come in and sprout their superiority, they will issue their "come and feel it for yourself" challenges not really understanding that anecdotal evidence is not credible proof of anything, and they will carry on with every denigration possible. They seem to think that if they can verbosely insult you into submission that that is some sort of proof of their superiority. ...but still the question remains unanswered. We designed the testing protocol as a way of giving these "masters" an opportunity to prove their "fajin" in a way that would satisfy the requirement of delivering "credible proof". In fact we styled the test exactly on what Michael Phillips declared was the observable requirements of "real fajin", he even declared publicly that what we had designed was perfectly in tune with his "fajin". But when it came to him actually participating in the test all we got was more of his bluster and insults and another round of exit clauses. Which is then why we decided to give the project some teeth ... The $1.5million Fajin Challenge You would think that these "masters", if they truly believed they were "the real deal", would fall over themselves to sign up ... I mean how easy ... all they have to do is perform their special fajin in a controlled scientific environment and they scoop up $1.5million. How many of these "masters" have even applied? Zero, zip, zilch, nada, none ... Now I want to go back to the original intent for a moment ... it was and still is a desire to see the art progress and evolve in real and pragmatic ways. If one of these masters have "the real deal" than great!! Let's see some credible evidence of that. For the benefit of the whole world of the Internal Martial Arts ... lets get some hard facts and figures of the efficacy of your technique, let's get your "method" out there because you will be the ONLY one in the world that has backed your claims up with credible, verifiable proof. Please note that initially I don't give a fig what method is being used nor the "substance" that creates the effect (i.e. Qi, Jin, vibration, pulse wave etc. etc.). All I care about is, "Does it work for real? Yes or No?" If no then we move on ... but if yes than we can start investigating the hows and whys of the particular method, develop some baseline data help progress the art in ways that benefits everyone. That my friend is truly where I am coming from with all of this

Hahhah ... Ray still has that up on his site ... that is actually rather funny. If you had seen the "fall out" between them you would realize how damn funny that is... but you would have to have a facebook account to see the rather public "to do" they had...

Hiya Dawei, Cheers for adding your perspective. I would like to reestablish something that my article listed in the OP was conveying. People are too willing to subscribe to the notion of internal martial arts like Taijiquan having some sort of "magic powers". We hear folks saying things like "they can transfer [energy] through the air without contact" and KO someone, or that they can transfer "highly condensed Jin/jing" through to an opponent with only a touch to deliver super-powered hits. Yet there exists not a single scrap of credible evidence to substantiate such claims. Nothing ... nowhere (please ... prove me wrong). Whereas, in my training and experience, Jin is merely the art of taking unrefined strength, Li, and refining it into more efficient and effective means. I am deliberately presenting a framework of Jin that is both practical and pragmatic and it is a framework that has long been established within the internal martial arts. Please refer to: http://bit.ly/UFxSwU Nice and simple with pragmatic approaches and application. Whereas "believers" in this "subtle fajin" tend to advocate ignoring all of these fundamental "Jin" for the faith-belief that one day they can produce this "super power". They go further of course ... they will say that unless you can do their "subtle fajin" then you aren't really doing Taijiquan, that your Taijiquan is "empty" or inferior and only they have "the real deal". But then you ask them to actually provide some sort of credible evidence for their claims ... and it is usually about then they they start frothing at the mouth and lash out with ad homien attacks and denigrations (I believe the current case in point verifies that rather clearly). Again, the fundamental and initiating question behind all of this is: "Why is there not a single scrap of credible evidence that this Subtle Jin works for real (i.e. in real combat or at the very least in a controlled scientific environment)?" Please note how, even after 7 pages of virulence and obtuseness, this question still remains unanswered. Again I will emphasize, the whole point is to get some proper testing done to verify the reality and efficacy of the abilities that are being claimed. If they prove to be real ... awesome!!! Then we can focus on further testing to hone practice methods. If only some prove to be real ... awesome !!! We can weed out the fakes and frauds and focus in on the practical methods. If none of them prove to be real ... awesome !!! We can then go back to basics and work on ways of reworking and rethinking the ancient teachings held in the Taiji classics. No witch hunt my friend ... just an earnest desire for honesty, accountability, and progression in the arts.

OK lets use some "intelligence" with a good dose of critical thinking The "subject" is a student of Michael Phillips thus the student is complicit to what "should" happen. Therefore this video should be immediately discounted as reliable evidence of anything on those grounds alone, The subject is compliant to the "push" and is using a technique called "the bronze man"; meaning the subject is deliberately "locking up" their structure to give Michael something to push against. It is a training technique popular in the Yang style and is only meant to be just that, a training technique ... giving the partner a locked up structure to give themselves something to push against to help them correct their structure for optimum force output. Except these "teachers", no doubt due to being too insular in their practice, have chosen to believe that they can do this crap against anyone and are spamming around their vids claiming as such (case in point: Michael Phillips). When finally Michael accepted the challenge to try and do this "fajin" on a non-compliant person ... he failed. The first gentleman you see in the clip is Ray Abeyta (pink shirt), a once virulent supporter of Michael Phillips, who has recently came out to confirm that all these demonstrations by Michael Phillips requires compliance in exactly the manner I have outlined. This video is neither proof nor evidence for anything one way or the other. It is not conducted in a controlled environment and the "effect" is being manipulated on so many levels that it should be discarded without any further consideration. How about Gary's video?? LOL ... that is so obviously a crude shove pure and simple ...

Heya Jeff ... I think it is awesome that you are going to go to Gary. I really want to emphasize though, as mentioned previously, that anecdotal evidence is not credible proof of anything. It provides no baseline data that can be quantified. Also your visit will not meet the requirements of being a "controlled environment", it will be in Gary's "space" where he has control. The purpose of a double-blind experiment is to remove any chance that the demonstrator or the subject can influence the results. Only then can we have confidence in the outcome. Let me perhaps add a few "requests" to the format: Have the camera set up side-on to the "test", Do 2 test formats, one where Gary is standing in "embrace the tree" position (i.e. arms in front palms facing back to him), and one where you are standing in "embrace the tree", Make sure you are a in a comfortable and well structured stance, a bow and arrow stance is preferable with one foot a shoulder width forward of the other. Do not stand with feet parallel, it is too easy to break your balance. Again stand with one foot in front of the other in a well structured, well balanced stance, When Gary is in "embrace the tree" you lightly touch his forearms with only your fingers (I acknowledge that contact is required), When you are standing in "embrace the tree" Gary lightly touches your forearms with only his fingers, Any more contact than this and the test is invalid. We are looking for a legitimate transfer of "Jin" therefore, whilst contact is required, you should be able to do it just through finger contact. As soon as you allow the full palm to come into contact you are immediately allowing a conventional push to happen. Under no circumstance should you "lock your structure", this is called "the bronze man" technique and it is a trick with these demonstrations that create the "bounce back" effect. With a locked frame the subject has no choice but to bounce back. Keep your body relaxed and make sure there is plenty of "give" in your arms. Stay relaxed and do not tense up or lock your structure, With the video we will see whether Gary can truly "project Jin" by seeing if there is any sign of a push being made; if he moves his body mass toward the target (i.e. you), if he extends his arms at you and if his arms follow the target then it is just a push/shove. Granted it may be a good push because I would be confident in saying that Gary has developed some good internal connections, but a push is still a push. [For example the earlier clip of Gary pushing the guy into the fence is just that, a push, a good push but still just a push]. If this format is followed than I also would be very interested in seeing the video. But once again, success of failure, even this video (just like every other damn video being spammed about) is not the sort of credible evidence required to establish a body of base-line data. Only in a proper double-blind, controlled environment can we have a degree of confidence in the results.

LOL ... perhaps you ignored the fact that I have given complete links to where the project is being hosted. All details, including where the money is located, is provided. I know some bums have gone across to verify. I also know with 100% certainty that Gary has a Facebook account. You will just have to accept that I am deliberately wanting to keep any involvement with the "Challenge" contained to one location.

Hahhahah ... and here come the "Exit Clauses" ... so very predictable ... and rather pathetic !!!

Firstly it isn't "proof" ... even though I very much trust the gentlemen involved, I will hold myself to the same standards of relying only on credible proof one way or the other. Unfortunately there was no video made of the encounter, but I also have Michael Phillips' confession that he was unable to produce his "fajin" on either of the gentlemen involved. Secondly I am not "hiding" anything ... it just so happens that I interact on FB and this is where the "encounter" was reported. I am not in the business to deliberately try and debunk or defame anyone. I would love to see some proper empirical evidence emerging because there are a shite-load of people deluding themselves and the people they are teaching. If your sifu can provide it then "Huzzah!!" ... I would love to see it happen, because then we can zero in on some training techniques that are effective. But nothing you have offered so far carries any weight of credible evidence. Even if I did go and touch Gary, which I am more than happy to do if the opportunity arose, and if he did make me bounce me on my arse, that is still not credible evidence. Sure it might convince me, but then I would be just another groupie spamming about claims that cannot be held with confidence as credible evidence. Firstly it wasn't his seminar, as in a seminar he was teaching at, it was at another "teacher's" seminar. Apparently he was mouthing off and being a general "know it all", someone got the shits with that and asked to feel his fajin. Apparently, and this is confirmed by Michael, he actually tried in earnest ... and failed. But again, apart from at least a small degree of satisfaction I gained in hearing about it (and even being a part of the reporting of it), I still cannot use this as proof that "fajin doesn't work". There are too many variables involved, too many "maybes". The reality is that there are many frauds and self-deluded people in the IMA today. They have a free reign because there is no accountability required. "Exit clauses" have be hard-wired into the "culture" of the art whereby teachers can excuse themselves from undergoing this sort of scrutiny. I think it is time the confusion ended.

A well considered response with some good referencing ... thank you. Agreement on terminology, as you have indicated, is vital. The term "fajin" can immediately mean different things to different people depending on their training and biases. Some folks, especially "believers" of the paranormal type fajin, would say that kong jin and fa jin are synonymous. In the article I posted in the OP, I have intentionally referenced Jin in very mundane and pragmatic terms. I feel that there is too much "mystic" talk in the internal martial arts and that people are getting too caught up on these abstract concepts. They are getting too involved in chasing "energies" and "powers" and leaving behind the practical world of the raw body as it is. They are leaving behind the reality of practical marital arts in the hope and faith of developing something "special". My "endeavor" with putting forth the thoughts in this article is to bring these terms into pragmatic realms that are practically useful and applicable to practitioners.

A universal patterning that is a pattern of its own patterning. Dao is the giver, the gift, and the given. Must be time for more tea

A couple of friends of mine tested Michael Phillips at a public seminar and he could not produce anything more than a rather sad little pulse against someone who wasn't compliant. You can read about it here: https://www.facebook.com/groups/thefajinproject/permalink/460713917301002/ I will emphasize though that this is still only anecdotal evidence so no concrete conclusions can be made ... further testing would be required Interesting that all his videos vanished from the web at exactly the same time as the above mentioned event

Thanks for this my friend It is not that I/we discount "qi projection", it is just that I am keeping things primarily focused on the phenomena of "light touch" fajin within the martial application of the Internal Martial Arts. How many times is enough?? Well I have set a rather conservative figure of 6 out of 10 equals success. Meaning that if you are able to "bounce" 6 out of 10 subjects (i.e. randomly selected, non-compliant, non-complicit) than that would equate to an overall "success" for the test. There are different "theories" about the mechanism of fajin ... some say outright that it is a projection of Qi or Jin creating the force ... others postulate that it is a "signal" that creates an involuntary bio-mechanical response. I personally don't care for such postulation until credible evidence that proves its validity is provided.

Hi Jeff, thanks for your inquiry We are not trying to directly measure Qi, or Jin etc. We are trying to firstly establish and verify with credible evidence that these "masters" are in fact able to make a person "sheer of their feet and bounce away" with minimal contact (we are not even trying to examine the no-touch version). By minimal contact we mean either the master only lightly touches the subject, or the subject light touches the master, the subject is bounced away with no sign of body movement that would imply a push using muscle power (Wai Jin or Li). So the first step is to verify the claims in a clear "success" of "failure" format. With that established then the "how" and "why" questions can be explored.