Stigweard

Aye, I'm hearing ya

I'd like to congratulate you on a well articulated piece of writing In agreement with you, I think it goes without saying that we are all a part of an integrated and interdependent "something", whether you call that "consciousness" or "Dao" or "whatever". Referring to this cosmic field of oneness as "consciousness" always drifts towards the connotations of some sort of universal "personality", even though I understand that that is not your implication. And I can also see why you have concluded that this "universal consciousness," as you call it, is synonymous with "Dao". Comments like the following create some interesting lines of discussion: "Consciousness has no physical form, yet everything physical comes from it." I personally believe the reality of it is much more subtle than this. Dao is the physical form, there is no abstraction from the natural reality. Any "spiritual energy" is merely an natural extension of the spectrum of energy that is still interdependently resonant with the physical reality of now. Physical form doesn't "come from" Dao ... physical form gives birth to incessant evolutions of physical form but "the way" in which that physical form evolves and changes IS Dao. The "stuff" that the universe is made of is merely different permutations and variances in the density of Qi. The coarser the density of Qi the more "physical" it is, the more subtle the density of Qi the more "spiritual" it is. But again there is no abstracted separation between what is physical and what is spiritual, they are just different emanations of the same spectrum. Does Qi correspond to your notion of consciousness? Perhaps it does, there certainly has been much in depth research in this direction. But yes overall a very well written and thoughtful post, thank you.

That would be a great discussion ... but unfortunately I know that you and I would already agree. Maybe I should deliberately disagree just to get the ball rolling

Hmmm .... All good for now me thinks, I'll get back to ya if sometin comes to mind.

It would appear we have arrived at an harmonious agreement ... much respect my friend.

Perhaps the best thing you have ever written my fuzzy eared old friend Essentially I agree with you. Always will I maintain the pivotal role Lao-Zhuang philosophy must take in cultivation. I love that word "cultivation" ... very similar to the term yǎngshēng 養生, the translation of which means "health preservation" or "nourishing life". This is what Daoist movement arts were referred to before they became popularized under the modern name of Qigong. I believe there is something about the wisdom that age naturally brings. There is also some truth in the idea that a healthy clean body produces a clear mind, and perhaps you would agree with me that a clear, unfettered mind is a mind that can truly see the oneness of Dao. Recognizing this our Daoist practitioners through the ages have dedicated eons of research into how to keep the body healthy so the mind can be clear, and how we can preserve this health so that we can cultivate the wisdom granted by many passings of the seasons. There is also some truth in the idea that the stronger the illness the stronger the medicine needs to be. I have also heard it said that the true art of healing is, "The right cure, for the right person, at the right time." If a person's mind is crystal clear and their health is enduringly-vibrant, then perhaps just the gentle caress of Lao-Zhuang philosophy is all they need. If, however, their mind is sullied with conditioned fixations and their health is severed at the root, then this is where the stronger medicine of the "supplemental" Daoist practices like Yangsheng come into play. The plain truth is that most modern people have many afflictions so, in terms of what best serves people to help them start making the journey back to oneness, then I feel that a wider spectrum of Daoist cultivation is required.

Actually this is an excellent call. The fundamental first step I suggest to my students is to first discover the Dao of the body. In Taijiquan we spend endless hours liberating the body from tensions and conditioned postural habits. Through Song Gong we rediscover the natural resilience and fluidity of physicality ... we rediscover ziran, wu wei, and Dao in living action. This is the root, everything else flows and grows from there.

Go on ... you know you want to

Oi goldentaoist ... why is that you have only started an account today and this is the only thread you are posting in ... makes me wonder it does ...

Tao, name of no name Tao, the ism that isn't Tao, the word said not

Ahh ... excellent post my friend. Thank you for sharing your learned and experienced view. Actually that is probably the strongest argument yet for the liberalization of the term "daoist". @Mark Saltveit ... you wont find Daoshi in Laozi or the Zhuangzi. Daoshi 道士 is a formal term for an ordained priest. What you will find in both Zhuangzi and Laozi is repeated usage of the term Zhenren/Shengren 真人 meaning "true person" synonymous with "sage" or "holy person". It also appears in Huainanzi, Liezi, Wenzi etc.

LOL it's easy to misjudge people if all we have as a gauge is the words in a post. Oh and don't write of the Tao of Pooh so quickly ... it does do a fair job of covering one Taoist principle of Pu朴 -- the uncarved block. Another synonymous Daoist term is Ziran/Tzu jan which means natural, spontaneous, or more correctly translated -- "self-so". Marblehead is a big fan of tzu jan so drop him a line if you want to know more

I agree with your sentiments ... but you already knew that I highly doubt that Laozi, if he was a really personage, did not engage in more practical applications of Dao then just philosophy. I have heard it said that Laozi was a court geomancer and diviner for the imperial court of the time.

Not bad for an old man

Wow! Lots to respond to ... thanks all Yes the philosophical treatise of Laozi and Zhuangzi were written before the Han synthesis and formalization of the classification "Daojia". Thus it is quite accurate to say that Lao-Zhuang philosophy predated the organized religion of Daoism. But Lao-Zhuang philosophy was only one part of the complete world view of Dao-centric Chinese culture at the time. Right along side you had active and alive traditions whose ontology found their way into texts like: * Huainanzi 淮南子 -- contains details of jing 精, qi 氣, shen 神, and the cosmology of Tian-di-ren 天地人. * Baopuzi 抱朴子 -- contains Ge Hong's own researches into the art of transcendence and immortality, topics like alchemy (jindan 金丹, pills), health preserving (yangsheng 養生), meditation and breathing techniques (xingqi 行氣), exorcism, sexual practices (fangzhongshu 房中術), herbalism (fuyao 服藥) and talismanic charms (shenfu 神符) Significantly predating Laozi and Zhuangzi by over a millennium is the Huangdi Neijing 黃帝內經, the contents of which covers Yin/Yang theory and the Wuxing (five elements) and the extensive early methodology of traditional Chinese medicine. The curators of the Han synthesis recognized this, which is why all of these texts were collected and equally called Daojia. And seeing that these curators were over 2000 years closer to the time of the writing of these texts than we are, in addition to the fact that there were actually part of the culture we are talking about, I am quite comfortable in following their lead. And I must emphasize again that this collection of Dao-centric texts was the sum total of Daojia / Daoism at that time. And, in my perhaps not so humble opinion, I believe that you can only get an integral perspective of this overall Dao-centric world view by studying and engaging the full spectrum ... or at least a greater bandwidth than just Lao-Zhuang philosophy on its own. This is a very good question because there is no doubt that Dao in universal and transcends cultural representation. I believe though that, whatever the practice, it must harmonize with the basics of Yin/Yang, Tian-ren-di, Jing-qi-shen, Ziran, Wu wei, the Bagua and the Wuxing. I am sure there are many practices from other cultures and traditions that do a damn fine job of bringing the practitioner closer to harmony with Dao.

Erm ... nope this is got very little to do with whether you have to study under a lineage master. Though granted this view may be held amongst the exclusionists like Kirkland and Co. I must make it clear that in no way do I believe that you have to be formally ordained in a Daojia lineage in order to attain Dao. Right here on TaoBums there has been numerous occasions of people implicitly claiming that Taoism was first a philosophy that then became a religion and that somehow the philosophy is more "pure". LOL the Tantric devotee in my example only had an issue when the our sex practitioner tried to claim that what they were doing was Tantric sex. My Tantric devotee cares little for how other people have sex. This is fun !! It only goes off the rail in your mind because you are not representing my original example properly and have added new contextual features. In my example we have a Joe who is a sex philosopher who has only read the "Art of Sex" and claims his sex philosophy is "true" sex. But Susan, who is a sex practitioner, says that Joe isn't really experiencing sex as it is intended. Now in your example you have added George who is a Tantric sex practitioner who is saying that Tantric sex is the only real sex, and non-tantric practitioners are "frauds" when they claim they have experienced sex. By the way, it could be quite acceptably argued that you haven't really experience the heights of sexual pleasure until you have practice Tantric sex (trust me ) Now in your example our friend Joe actually does make the transition into becoming at a sex practitioner. And at the very basic level, that is what I personally am advocating with Daoist practice ... don't just be a theoretic Daoist by only cultivating your mind with Daoist philosophy (which by the way is incredibly beneficial), discover the full spectrum of the Daoist worldview by also cultivating the physical (i.e. with yangshen) and the spiritual (i.e. with neidan). But yes within Daoist orthodoxy there are your exclusionists who will say that even this is not good enough and you must become a part of a Daoist lineage to really experience Dao and have the right to call yourself a Daoist. To reemphasize, I personally don't fully agree with this, however I do respect their point of view and will subsequently not formally call myself a Daoist nor will I claim the authority to teach Daoism.

Sure lets play with this. The analogy that I was making was that the person just reading the book on sex is like the person who only focuses on "philosophical Daoism" and claiming that this is what Daoism "truly" is all about. In your example the sex philosopher actually made the bridge to combine both the philosophy of sex with the actual practice of sex ... and no doubt they found out that the practice was oohhh so much more enjoyable then just reading the philosophy Now if our sex philosopher come practitioner then tried to claim that the sex they were having was actually "true" Tantric sex (especially if they were trying to sell DVD's on "Tantric Sex"), then I believe that your Tantric adherent who had the proper training would have quite acceptable grounds to say something to the contrary.

Beautiful And likewise beautiful If cause and effect was just random there would be no order or regularity. There would be no reliable laws of physics. But the universal reality is that there is constant and ever-cycling phases of change that seem to conform to some sort of pattern.

Yup, following this line of the discussion, and there a few, I would obviously say that I completely agree with you. If Daosim does find it's basis on the Tian, Ren, Di - Heaven, Man, Earth / Spiritual, Mental, Organic, as convention seems to indicate, then our cultivation of these three spheres must take place simultaneously.

Aye, you and I have had differing views before especially on the Philosophical/Religious debate. But I have always respected you the next morning LOL not telling

Hi Aaron, Sure one of the "tactics" of a debate can be to keep attention where your position is strong. Have I used this before? No doubt I have. Another attention-shifting debating tactic, quite often used in politics, is to wage character assassination against the speaker whose view you don't agree with. The purpose is to get the conversation focused on the speaker's character as a way of both directing attention away from the topic at hand and to invalidate the view of the speaker. This is a ploy most commonly used by people who know all to well that their own counter-views on the topic lack in substance and fortitude. I have to admit that I regard this form of debating with disdain. Another reason though for people to indulge in personal attacks is because the speaker's views may be threatening their own cherished views, and because of the personally felt emotional response they feel they need to react personally. The thing is though that if you were really secure within your own views no amount of contrary views or comments would cause you to react defensively or emotionally. So which is it for you Aaron?

Just thought I would create a directory of previous discussions: Longevity, Buddhist Vs Taoist Views And Wu Dang Yang Sheng Article... What Buddhism and Taoism have in Common? Why Taoism is different Buddhism v. Taoism Buddhism and taoism? Taoist views on Buddhist way Taoism Vs Buddhism Tao beats Buddha Buddhism transcends the Tao Of Buddhists and Taoists

Agreed