Stigweard

And you are doing a damn fine job of it !!!

This poll can be used in conjunction with What type of Daoist are you? -- Part 1. It uses Livia Kohn's distinctions of the degrees of involvement an individual may have in the religion/tradition of Taoism. Comments and discussion welcomed.

LOL we are discussing the same topic across a few threads ... all good

Quoting from the above mentioned article, I believe this is a critical consideration in this discussion: Your stance on this dialogue will depend on where you see yourself standing on the sliding scale between inclusiveness (i.e. I call myself a Daoist therefore I am) or exclusiveness (i.e. you are only a Daoist if you conform to prerequisite conditions, like being ordained etc.)

And even lesser known are the more "closed door" texts: * Daozang / Tao Zhang 道藏 * Shenzi / Shen Tzu 慎子 * Liezi / Lieh Tzu 列子 * Wenzi / Wen Tzu 文子 * Baopuzi / Pao Pu Tzu 抱朴子 * Guanzi / Kuan Tzu 管子 * Neiye / Nei Yeh 內業 * Huainanzi / Huai-nan Tzu 淮南子 * Huangdi Neijing 黃帝內經 * Tai Hsi Ching My emphasis here is that, whilst Laozi and Zhuangzi are central texts, they are not the be all and end all of the Daoist tradition.

Why do you believe this is unfounded? Within the context of Chinese culture that is exactly what the Daoist tradition is. What do you believe the Daoist tradition is if you so adamantly disagree?

Re-quoting TWIV: "In 2006, [Louis Komjathy] received ordination into the Huashan lineage of Quanzhen Daoism and lived as a visiting Daoist monk in the Daoist monasteries of Laoshan 嶗山 (Mount Lao; near Qingdao, Shandong) and Huashan 華山 (Mount Hua; Huayin, Shaanxi)." So you can let up on the assumptions that Komjathy is merely some sort of externally observing academic. Also the simple archeological fact is that the I Ching, in the indigenous form of the Lo Shu, predates any formalization of Taoism by around 2000 years or more. Even the current King Wen sequence was said to have been formalized C. 12th century BC. So even if in the 3rd Century AD Wang Bi said that the I Ching is Daoist all he has done, as I have pointed out elsewhere, is incorporated a component of the indigenous world view of ancient China into the formalized body of Taoism. Does it make the I Ching Daoist? Well perhaps from the perspective that studying the I Ching is a part of Taoist curriculum. But in no way does it make the I Ching exclusively Daoist, because under the same sort of perspective the I Ching could also be called Confucian.

Thank you for your comments devoid, you are quite accurate in what you say. I acknowledge as you have accurately pointed out that there are Taoist sympathizers in the east just as much as those in the west. What I am advocating here is for western students of Taoism to become more educated about what their focus of study is really all about. Many people certainly make the misconceptions outlined here: COMMON MISCONCEPTIONS CONCERNING DAOISM (TAOISM).

Thanks for the inquiry devoid. I guess you could consider my investigations as 3 parts research and 1 part advocacy. In terms of research, I am always on the look out to see how I can serve best. I deeply believe in the benefits that the Taoist world view offers to the world. So the question I am always asking is, "How can I/we be better emissaries for this tradition?" There is an incredible dialog taking place between Chinese Taoism and those in the west that find affinity to its ontology. Notice I said "incredible" not "good" The Taoist summit I attended in Beijing in 2009 showed me that there is a wide divide between Chinese and Western adherents. The only way that divide is going to be bridged is through dialogue and mutual understanding. Now part of my building of understanding is to find out more about western views of Taoism, and I have run a few topics and polls along this line: What type of Daoist are you? -- Part 1 What type of Daoist are you? -- Part 2 What is the BIGGEST challenge for Modern Western Taoists? The Relationship Between Religious and Philosophical Taoism The challenges facing Modern Western Taoists The 1st International Summit on Laozi and Daoist Culture Taoism Today -- The Controversy Continues And at the same time I am taking every opportunity to learn about traditional Chinese Taoist adherents and their views on their tradition and how it is being expressed in the West. It's also research about my own perceptions on the issue. I am quite prone to throwing a statement or sentiment out there on the forum and reaping the benefits of how other people's perceptions and views will further clarify, shape and progress my own view (classic example: Is Tao an Ontological Essence of Life?) And yes it is also about advocacy as well. Western students have obviously received a misconstrued view of Taoism through the filter of western commercialism, colonialism and blatant misinformation. And if the above mentioned dialogue is going to take place then we have to give due respect to the Chinese Taoist adherents by understanding their world view with contextual correctness. So rather than "boxing" people into groups, my purpose is to challenge established views and stimulate dialogue for the purpose of greater understanding. And this goes both ways because I also believe that the traditional Taoists need to try and understand Western thinking more so that they can offer their teachings in a way that is more digestible than the current offerings -- this was the main thrust of my presentation when I spoke at one of the official functions at the above mentioned summit. And I have to say that your last paragraph is indicative of exactly the issue I am raising here. You have read some general texts on Taoism and you didn't find iconical or ritualistic practices there and then assume that, because they aren't in these general texts, they aren't or shouldn't be there in Taoism. You can be quite sure that if you were permitted to enter the gate of these schools as a formal student you would find that there are indeed very specific ancient texts that outline exactly what you didn't find in your popular general texts (please don't mistake this as me saying that I have been accepted as a formal student of any particular school). So yes mutual understanding and respect between traditional Taoists and western sympathizers is the key. Because what most westerners think is Taoism is barely scratching the surface and from my own study and training what is there to be discovered is infinitely much more.

In the first instance you argue that we are unable to make definitive classifications of Taoists. But in the second instance you disqualify certain peoples right to make such definitions based on whether they are defined as a professor of religion vs a professor of philosophy. I believe the fundamental observation that the likes of Kirkland, Kohn and Komjathy (lol nice alliteration) are making is that the way in which traditional Chinese Taoists view themselves and their own religion/cultural tradition is a far cry from what many westerners like to call Taoism. One of the main problems this causes is that many "teachers" proclaim they are teaching "authentic Taoism" when that is simply not true by the standards of Taoist adherents who certainly DO have the right to say so. I agree with our esteemed scholars in this sense that you can call yourself a Taoist sympathizer all you want, but if you want to call yourself a Taoist then I think you are obligated to ensure that you adhere to the qualifications as determined by the Chinese religion/cultural tradition. I will reemphasize here though what I said in an earlier post: "whilst Prof Kirkland highlights the disparity between Western and Chinese Taoism, it could be equally argued that Taoism of modern China is a paltry shade of the original tradition of antiquity." Thus, whilst I am a Taoist sympathizer, what I am "looking for is a way to learn to embody the same world view and state of being of those original, simple, and pure minded Shen Rens of ancient, indigenous China."

Well they do have a huge list to choose from: Category:Heroes - Marvel Universe Wiki: The definitive online source for Marvel super hero bios.

Thought I would bump this up seeing that there was some interest floating around ...

These couple of polls are also relevant: What type of Daoist are you? -- Part 1 What type of Daoist are you? -- Part 2

This is an appropriate article to add to the discussion: COMMON MISCONCEPTIONS CONCERNING DAOISM (TAOISM)

Dirt! The Movie

I agree with you completely TWIV. Perhaps people are so eager to describe themselves that they pin the Taoist badge to themselves prematurely. Perhaps Western culture is so spiritually malnourished that people grasp for the Taoist banner like a starving man grasping for a scrap of food. I think Livia Kohn provides the most pragmatic view in saying that you have Taoist sympathisers, those who subscribe to the philosophy and may engage in some Taoist practices, and Taoist adherents, those who have both passed through formal initiations and have dedicated their lives to traditional Taoist cultivation. Personally I would say that I am on the cusp due to the fact that I haven't "passed through formal initiations" per se. Oh and manitou, I looove your posts !!

As I have been taught, in Taoism there is the Law of Universal Energy Response which simply states: The energy vibration we hold within ourselves is reflected in our life experience. Every thought, word, and action we make creates an energetic resonance. An immoral act stays in our energy vibration as a sort of energetic "stain" which then attracts/creates a corresponding life experience. That is the closest Taoist equivalent to Karma in my personal learning.

LOL careful now, Taoism has celibacy as well. The Quanzhen sect has a strong tradition of celibacy, but it is not out of distaste for sex or sexual conduct (this is not me saying that that is what Buddhist celibates do). It is more about nurturing Jing for the quest of spiritual sublimation. And the Shen Ren does have a recognition of "illusion" as well, but it's not that this world is illusional in preference for a reality that is more "real". It is more a recognition that a world view based on conceptual description is a very narrow and filtered perception, just a sliver of potential awareness. So the view that one's conceptual description of the world is "the only reality" is the "illusion" because reality in all it's subtlety is infinitely more. This does agree with your statement the way of Tao is more liberally inclusive or accepting because, in the act of dissolving fixed conceptual views, the Shen Ren regards all views as equal.

LOL I guess not ... careful tho ... it gets lively in some of them

How are those practice going that I shared with you?

Should teachers charge students?? That's not the real question. The real question is, "Should teachers be dependent on student's money?" The answer there of course is, "NO". As soon as the teacher is dependent or attached to the student coming to class then the teacher can no longer be effective. Perhaps the best thing a teacher can do for the student is to send him away, or recommend another teacher. Another interesting story about this: A wealthy businessman decided he wanted to learn the supreme truth of all religions. He invited all religious leaders to give him their best instruction. In this way he became very knowledgeable but also very conceptually confused. He finally realized that if doctrines were just creations of the mind then they mustn't be the ultimate truth. Eventually an achieved one agreed to teach the business man the ultimate, subtle truth. But the teacher demanded twelve fish of pure gold, each weighing 15 ounces to be placed in a boat along with other offerings. The boat would set sail and be secluded from the worldly life of people. Only deaf sailors and servants would be allowed to help in the boat. On a very auspicious day, the teacher and the pupil sailed out to sea accompanied by a few sailors and servants. The servants helped prepare the offerings in the manner of traditional ritual and then retreated from view. Only the teacher and the pupil were left together. They ceremoniously made offerings to the Heavenly Realm. Then, to the amazement of the rich businessman, the teacher took the gold fish and threw them one by one into the ocean. The pupil's first instinct was to stop him, but he dared not since the fish no longer belonged to him. Finally, he gathered his courage and asked the master, "May I venture to ask the meaning of this?" The teacher's answer was simple: "I just wanted to see the fish swim again" "I'm afraid that probably cannot happen," said the pupil. "Why not?" "Lifeless gold cannot be made into living fish." "Is it that your gold is not good enough?" asked the teacher. "All gold is lifeless, venerable sir," replied the businessman. The teacher then smiled and gently said to his pupil, "I am glad that you know that." At first the rich pupil was stricken, realizing what an expensive lesson he had just been taught, but he immediately said to his teacher, "Thank you sir. Hereafter, your pupil will not value lifeless things. I will maintain single-mindedness in order to learn Tao from you."

Good luck with this: Longevity, Buddhist Vs Taoist Views And Wu Dang Yang Sheng Article... What Buddhism and Taoism have in Common? Why Taoism is different Buddhism v. Taoism Buddhism and taoism? Taoist views on Buddhist way Taoism Vs Buddhism Tao beats Buddha Buddhism transcends the Tao Of Buddhists and Taoists If we don't here from you in a week we will send a search party

Extending on this dialogue, and I thank everyone who has participated. We do find ourselves in an interesting position because most of us here are looking to tap into a pure spring of Taoist cultivation. From my learning, the roots of Taoism, the organized religion, began in the simple, pure, spiritual tradition of ancient, indigenous China. Some have oft-used the term "shamanic" when describing this early tradition, and this is perhaps anthropologically correct. I personally feel it goes further than this, that the original tradition was perhaps more stately, sagely and scholarly, but this is no doubt my romanticism at play. Nevertheless, early Taoism was steeped in simple purity and was highlighted with achieved ones who became Shen Rens through their practices and insight. Communities of students naturally gathered around these achieved ones and mutual support was established. As society became more complex and communities expanded and began to compete for territory and resources, both the achieved ones and their students retreated further and further into the mountains and remote places in order to maintain their peaceful, undisturbed existence. When more communal based religions appeared like Buddhism, many traditionalists feared the ancient traditions would disappear altogether. Thus in the Han Dynasty a great "synthesis" took place to try and preserve and exalt the indigenous traditions. The many diverse simple traditions were "brought into the fold" of a unified "state" tradition. Systems and structure were created around what used to be a simple, natural spiritual tradition. Of course the first formal school was the Tian Shi Dao, after which came a succession of diversifying sects and sub-sects until we see now in the modern era the main sects of the Quanzhen 全眞, Longmen 龍門 (a sub-sect of the Quanzhen), Zhengyi 正一, and some attribute Wudang Taoism 武當 as it's own sect. Now these religious sects were very successful in preserving the texts and fundamental practices of the ancient tradition and, through their temples and priestly hierarchies, kept Taoism within the mainstream of the Chinese culture. However, some would argue, quite credibly, that through aeons of structuring and repeated restructuring as Taoism fell in and out of favor as the dynasties changed, the tradition of Taoism became quite an abstract and complex sculpture with only sentimental resemblances to the original, simple, pure tradition. This vacancy of original purity was made even more barren through the Communist Cultural purges and modernization that has turned temples, grottoes, and priests into tourist attractions and tour guides. The summation of this is that, whilst Prof Kirkland highlights the disparity between Western and Chinese Taoism, it could be equally argued that Taoism of modern China is a paltry shade of the original tradition of antiquity. So it isn't any wonder that many Western students get terribly confused about Taoism. Most folks may have first learned about Taoism through Kung Fu, or Tai Chi, or Chi Kung, or maybe through some sort of Tao Te Ching translation, or even through popular literature like the Tao of Pooh. They may get that rush of inspiration of, "Wow! That is awesome! That's exactly how I see the world". And they may jump online and do some Googling on Taoism, and sooner or later they may end up here on TaoBums. And then they may just as quickly say "WTF!!! What's all this other stuff about?! What does penis size have to do with Taoism? Or kunlun ... or DMT ... or Zombie Fungus ... or Burning Palms ... or Lion Rolling Balls ... or religious sects ... or Qigong??? And who the hell is this Michael Lomax??!!!" But I think what we have to remember is that ultimately all we are looking for is a way to learn to embody the same world view and state of being of those original, simple, and pure minded Shen Rens of ancient, indigenous China. But we also have to acknowledge that the simple social environment of those ancient times no longer exists, except perhaps in extremely remote areas. The modern world is incredibly complex and intermeshed, and the demands and impositions on the individual’s freedom and liberty are becoming increasingly overbearing. Add to this is the kaleidoscopic frenzy of distractions and things clamoring for our attention. The modern student’s mind is a whirlwind of conditioning and befuddlement. So in all of this we have to ask ourselves: How can we cultivate the embodiment of the original Dao Shen Ren, even though we are living in the modern world and have available to us only limited learning resources delivered by a fractured and diluted Taoist tradition? And, if you are interested in such things, what can we do to develop the tradition of Taoism so that it can better serve the promotion of social harmony and spiritual maturity in the Western world?

Nice find, I have been using this invocation in my practice for 18yrs or so. I will add the version I have soon.