Stigweard

Thank you for sharing your experience. The question then of course is, if in China you don't have to be practicing the "full system" to be considered a Taoist, can Westerners who don't practice the "full system" also be considered Taoists?

Yes 命, Ming, is an interesting character. Interesting in that most translations do use "root" as it's English rendition. The character gives us the image of an authoritative mouth giving a command. If I was a Christian I would call it the "Will of God", as a Taoist I would more call it the laws of nature or the power of life. So with the connotations of an authoritative command I can understand the rendition of "destiny" or fate. But I do think that this is implying more of a "divine will".

With all due respect to King Kabalabhati and The Way Is Virtue, I wonder if you can see how your statements are creating an abstract, reified Tao separate from "human affairs"? The three spheres of Taoist ontology are Tian (Heaven), Ren (Human), Di (Earth). The integral wholeness of these three spheres IS Tao. Remove one sphere and what you are talking about is no longer Tao but some conceptual description that only exists in your own superficial thoughts. To even say that we should make "distinctions between" the "indescribable mystery" and the "the outward expression of tao" is to fracture the integral universal unity and, because that fracture is occurring only in your mind, you are also fracturing your own integral wholeness in taking this view. TWIV: LOL you first stated the improbability of Western Taoism and then went on to describe, quite succinctly I may add, how Western Taoism has and is evolving: "...it seems likely that any such Taoist traditions that are passed on to the West will likely be modified to some extent to conform more with Western Culture and Western thinking. However, in my view the underlying core substance of Taoism being a spiritual tradition should remain if it is really to be a form of Taoism." Thanks for that

Nice ... thanks for posting this

LOL So the old dogs think they know better because they have been around the block more times, and the new dogs think they are better because they believe they are the ones who are up with the times. So what else is new I think it all comes down to RESPECT. The old'ens must respect the young'ens because they DO have an energetic fresh view of things and their tenacity to see new ways can be a boon for progression of the arts. And the young'ens must respect the old'ens because they HAVE been around the block more times and the treasure of their experience is what the young'ens must build upon. On another note... If a student fails to do what the teacher asks, is it the fault of the student for not listening or not being motivated enough ... or is it the fault of the teacher for not communicating properly or not providing the right stimulus for motivation??? Spectrum said above: If they don't want to eat at your table don't offer them appetizers. Perhaps it could also be said: Serve them the appetizers they desire so that they will want to eat at your table.

This is a terribly important subject. Yes we still have a series of mini-rites of passages along the way as SZ has said. Mine included: The first time Dad let me drive our boat on my own Learning to drive Dad shouting me my first beer Tracking and hunting kangaroos My first kiss The first time I won a school ground fight Losing my virginity Finishing school and getting a job, etc etc However from personal experience, rites of passage are incredibly powerful events that really contribute to wholesome development. I used to be part of a male dance festival. I would go every year and teach tai chi and theatrical sword fighting. Every year there would be a initiation ceremony for the adolescent and teenage boys. The one year that stands out the most was deeply moving. The ceremony started with all the mothers preparing the boys (my step-son was one of them) which included stripping them down to lap-laps and painting them in ochre. The men, also stripped to loincloths and painted, in the mean time prepared a series of tests. This year was a test of body, a test of heart, and a test of mind. When the time came the women ushered the boys into the hall. The men were all lined up at the other end and we sang and stomped as we approached the boys. It would have been scene -- 50 or so nearly naked men painted with ochre stomping toward you. The ochre had dried so the air filled with ochre dust to add drama. We had a group of djembe drummers and didgeridoo players accompanying the whole process. The first test was the test of body. All the men stomped their way into an avenue of two lines. In pairs we all crossed arms with the man opposite us forming a large "bridge" over and down which the boys must travel. One by one they lay down on this bridge of manly, sweaty, orchered arms and we sang and stomped as we passed each boy down the whole length of the avenue. Eventually all the boys were passed down to stand before the Warrior at the Gate (hehehe that would be me), where I presented them with the "Test of the Heart". Standing on a platform above them I held my sword aloft and bellowed at them: "Strong is my arm, and sharp is my sword. But what is the Warrior's greatest strength?!" The boys were not allowed to answer right there and then. We ushered them out the back where boys and men sat together and, one by one, each boy and each man gave their answer to the riddle. The boys then wrote down their answer on a piece of paper with their name on it. The Test of Mind came next. All the pieces of paper were gathered into a basket and this basket was raised high off the ground back in the main hall. The boys were told that they could not pass the test without retrieving their piece of paper, and then we left them to work it out. Eventually they got themselves organized to create a 3-tiered pyramid with the older, bigger boys at the bottom and the smaller boys getting up on their backs. After a couple of misses and collapses they eventually secured the basket and all the boys got their bits of paper. Then all the boys were lined up. Each boy had a man who became his sponsor and his final "adjudicator" (usually the boys father). As each boys' turn came up the sponsoring man gave his parting piece of manly advise and then announced to all that the boy had passed and every one cheered, stomped, and the women ululated in shrill cheers. When all the boys were through the drums and didges roared to life and everyone sang, and cheered and danced around the boys. Then it all broke out into an hour long tribal dance party for all. This had moved me so much that I asked my father for an initiation. Though he was taken aback at first he did organize a wonderful day for me that really made me feel as if I was a worthy adult male member of our family (though there was no ochre or sweat exchanged and we certainly didn't dance ). So from personal experience I would say: "Men! Take your boys through an initiation. It doesn't have to be tribal or even overly-ritualised. As long as it is heart-felt and meaningful and gives them a clear sense of what it is to be a responsible adult male." And of course the same applies to mothers and girls.

This conversation is going in an interesting direction. I can vouch that, at least in the training I have had, communication with Tian Xian, Heavenly Immortals, is most definitely part of the the Taoist ontology. But let's not get caught up in the perception that they are just the "ascended master" type (i.e. human sages who have transcended the physical form). It is said, and I have some limited experience of this, spirit beings or nature spirits can come and reside in ones energy matrix after being attracted to the energy you carry and the particular practices you engage with. Certain spirit beings form a "relationship" with particular lineages and if you engage in the practices of that lineage then these spirit beings will be attracted to you and will help. The stern warning here is not to seek them out prematurely. They will make themselves apparent to you as your energy and your perception becomes more subtly attuned. Destiny is an interesting topic (obviously). In the Fu Jyeo / Invocation work that I have engaged in there is an interesting phrase in the Jade Emperors' Heart Seal Sutra: Once you achieve success in your cultivation, the result is eternity. Jade marrow will fill your bones. If you succeed, this Sacred Immortal Medicine, the goal of your cultivation, will certainly be achieved. If you fail to obtain the Sacred Immortal Medicine, your energy resources will eventually become exhausted, and you will be bound to your biological destiny. There are two things relevant to this current discussion. Firstly, according to this tradition, the "highest level" of cultivation is the achievement of Xin Dan, the Golden Elixir, or the Sacred Immortal Medicine. Secondly we have the notion of having a biological destiny and what perhaps could be called a "spiritual destiny". I personally sense that this is very much related to the whole Hun / Po discussion, where Hun is our heavenly spiritual essence and Po is our Earthly biological essence. To play with what 5ET and Ya Mu are saying, it is part of the Taoist ontology that sooner or later, in our myriad rounds of incarnation, we will eventually develop ourselves to the point where we will succeed in procuring Xin Dan and achieve spiritual immortality. So if a particular healing art in practice truly assists the individual achieve Xin Dan and therefore the state of Tian Xian (Heavenly Immortality), then "Yes" I would concur that this healing art operates on the Highest Level in the sense of facilitating our "ultimate" spiritual destiny.

Well said, complete agreement.

I have made my case and have provided all relevant support for it using my personal experience as a both a long-term cultivator and as someone who was once caught in the snare of computer game addiction. I have also provided specific research that highlights computer game addiction as significant issue especially for young males. And you have provide your opinions which of course you are free to do.

Loved it !!

As fun as statistical argumentation is, let's not detract too much from the main point that addictive computer gaming is most definitely hazardous and, in particular relevance to this forum, is an extreme detriment to anyone wishing to make any progression in Taoist cultivation. However let’s play with the numbers seeing that that’s where you are trying to scrape together some sort of solidity for your argument. You are most definitely correct that the average of a sample can be a fuzzy-lined distinction and should be used for evaluation with caution. However, with a sample size of 1,187, the standard error adjustment would only be 2.9%. Standard Error = 1/SQRT(n+1) n = sample size But for the sake of extreme prejudice let’s use an ultra-pessimistic standard error of 9%. This means that, instead of half (or 50%) of these gamers playing excessively, we can reduce it down to 41%. This is still an alarming amount of the highlighted group of gamers who are falling in the “over-use” area of more than 2hrs “screen-time” per day. The crucial piece of information you have neglected to notice and account for (speaking of cognitive bias) is that I was using a very specific demographic of “males aged 12-19”. I can fully accept that, when looking at a sample of ALL computer gamers (male, female, all ages etc.) then the percentage of computer game over-use would be substantially less, perhaps even around the 15% mark of the study you quoted. But again this depends on the definitions of “addiction” used in those particular studies. What we can see here is that, if addiction levels are around 15% across all demographics of gamers whilst addiction levels for teenage males is up around the 41%, then we have effectively identified a significantly high-risk demographic for computer game addiction. This is made even more significant to this discussion when we account for the fact that the demographic leniency on TaoBums is young males (What is the Average Age of a Tao Bum?). Returning to the definition of “over-use”, I am very confident with the relevancy of the "over 2hr per day" threshold. In fact I think 2hrs is quite a conservative time allowance. After all, if you are sitting on your ass for more than 2hrs a day twiddling a joystick or mashing a mouse on a computer game then you really do have a problem. But, to return to point, on many levels such computer game over-use is a major backward step for any aspiring Taoist cultivator. This is because addictive computer games: * Ensares and conditions the mind of the gamer, turning them into a “pathetic lab rat” in a skinner box. * Artificially stirs up the heart/mind, distorting the natural flow of energy and forces the energy to be locked in the head. With the mind so disturbed the communication between Shen and Jing is severed. * Creates poor circulation and restricted breathing due to poor sedentary posture. This sedentary posture can also lead to muscle and joint problems. * Overloads the body with adrenalin and cortisol without the physical exercise that usually accompanies the release of these chemicals. As a result the adrenals can burn out and the organs can be sapped of vitality. * Imprints negative imagery through the eyes into the subconscious. It also imprints the associated “story lines” that accompany the majority of games. If we also subscribe to the Taoist belief that our life experiences arise from our inner energy vibration then, by carrying these artificial imprints within us, we are creating further discordance in our lives. * Desensitises the gamer to acts of violence. * Robs the gamer of time which could be better spent in sincere cultivation. * Interferes with relationships and careers because, with the game imprinted so deep in the mind of the gamer, that’s all they can think about. * Interferes with quality of sleep both because gamers tend to play late into the night and because the artificial light of the screens shining through the eyes catastrophically destroys the natural circadian rhythm. The downsides of addictive computer games so outnumber any of the meager benefits that it would hypocrisy and delusion for a Taoist cultivator to indulge in them. Please do

LOL ... I remember a story I heard from an aboriginal man. He said that if a fella kept chasing other men's women then all the tribesmen would grab him and take him out into the bush. There they would force him face first between an attractive woman's legs. If he got an erection they would snap his neck there and then. O.o

I just want to express some gratitude for the discussion so far. I have benefited from hearing people's points of view.

Heya Aaron ... there's power in the Yin moments of life. What we call the "good times" are usually the Yang moments where everything is all sunny and rosy. The Yin moments are an opportunity to tap into deep reserves we never knew were there. If we learn to allow these phases to be and find cause to be grateful for them it is amazing what can result. A good friend of mine once said, "Compost gets all icky and slimy before it turns to fertilizer and grows flowers."

once again, Pink Floyd? banging the division bell music in dark rooms

Loving kindness is the natural state of a wholesome being. Trying to force love is like trying to make flowers grow faster by yanking up their stems. Remove the obstacles of love though cultivation and self-purification and love will spontaneously arise without effort.

The challenge of every teacher in every generation is how to best serve humanity. How you respond to that challenge depends many factors not the least of which is following ones own predilection. Here is a tale I have received: Nineteen years after Huang Di, The Yellow Emperor, was enthroned he went to learn from Kang Cheng Tzu on Kun Tung mountain. "I wish to know the most powerful energy to help the growth of crops to feed me people," Huang Di asked. "I also wish to learn to control yin and yang to harmonize all things. How can I achieve this?" Kang Cheng Tzu answered, "What you ask lies within the coarse material sphere of things, and what you want is to extend your influence over all things. Do you want to use all those unusual natural phenomena as opportunities to rule the world? Keeping to the narrowness of your mind, how can you understand the path of ultimate truth?" Therefore Huang Di separated himself from the affairs of state. He stayed in specially built house with couch grass on the floor for three months. Then he went to make another request. Kang Cheng Tzu was resting on his bed, facing south, and Huang Di approached him, walking on his knees. He bowed low, touching his head to the ground and asked, "I hear you have reached the highest state of the ultimate truth. I beg to know how to cultivate myself to achieve eternal life." Surprised Kang Cheng Tzu sat up and said, "Well asked! Listen, and I will tell you the highest state of the ultimate truth." --------- This story has lessons for both students and teachers.

There are some very simple Taoist exercises that have been proven to naturally enhance the Yang energy of males (and also the Yin energy of females). I am willing to share these privately if you send me a message.

Just to add a different slant to the discussion, if things are changing wouldn't a "good Taoist" simply find a way to appropriately adapt to the change rather than become sentimentally attached to "how things once were"?? Just a thought

LOL ... the average, or central tendency of a data set is a measure of the "middle" value of the data set. The average "screen time" per week is 14hrs which equates to 2hrs per day (14/7). This is the "middle" value which means half is above this figure and half is below.