Stigweard

Chapter Three -- Peaceful People When the worthy are not exalted, There is no contention amongst people; When rare goods are not treasured, There is no theft amongst people; When causes for desire are not seen, There is no confusion in people’s minds. Knowing this the sage counsels: Empty their minds, Fill their bellies, Weaken their convictions, Strengthen their bones. Preserve people’s subtle view and innocence. Give no cause for cunning and contrivance. Leading without controlling, Leaves nothing out of control. Original Text: Translator's Notes and Commentary: ^ Back to index ^

Sorry but there are numerous characters that you have chosen to read and change their base meaning to suit your take on things. Now I am not saying you aren't allowed to do it ... hell I have done the same with my work. I think you might just have to be open to the possibility that your view on things may neither be the only way of viewing it nor might it be the most correct way of viewing it.

Yes and are you sure that you are not reading your own mental constructs into the translation? Just a thought.

Ha! I'm with you sister!

In rendering my translation I have made extensive use of these websites: Chinese Etymology Home Page YellowBridge Chinese Language and Culture Laozi Daodejing Siegelschrift - Sealscript 老子 道德經 篆書 - Laotse Taoteking Learn Chinese Characters 老 子「道 德 經」Tao Te Ching in Big 5 LaoTze DaoDeJing [Tao Te Ching] Chinese text Roget's Thesaurus (1911) - The ARTFL Project Thesaurus.com | Find Synonyms and Antonyms of Words at Thesaurus.com Online Etymology Dictionary I have also made comparative analysis with several Daodejing translations: Tao Te Ching by Lao Tzu [Dao De Jing by Lao Zi] Derek Lin's Translation of the Tao Te Ching Terebess Asia Online - TAO LaoTze - TaoDeJing The Complete Works of Lao Tzu -- Ni Hua Ching

But that's just the thing tho isn't it ... you see "two" concepts that require harmony "between" them. The only thing that makes them "two" things and keeps them apart is that you are calling one thing yo and the other wu. Through this conceptual description reality suddenly becomes split and that split happens within and suddenly we have lost our integral wholeness. Just a thought

Were this someone's private Practice Forum then I would be happy to comply. However this is a subforum of the open Taoist Discussion forum wherein every member has the liberty to post and contribute however they wish. So whilst I will certainly be mindful and respectful for your endeavors, I certainly will not promise to "restrain myself" in any way.

I am quite sure the free-for-all nature of TaoBums can cope with people contributing and starting new topics as they feel fit.

1) How does one become Taoist? Is there an initiation or is it more of a decision? Good question ... big question. fiveelementtao gave you the right answer in terms of the types of Taoists: 1) Philosophical Taoists. These are people who focus on texts like the Tao Te Ching and are mainly interested in the philosophy of living based on the texts. They tend not to be very religious. They may or may not practice energy work and meditation. This is a very inclusive group with few rules and no initiation needed. 2) Religious Taoists. This is the most traditional type of Taoist. Like any religion some sects are more exclusive than others. they usually do require initiation and depending on your level of involvement there may be some rules. Religious Taoists are polytheist and in this sense it has alot of similarities with other traditional polytheism. There is usually extensive training in mysticism, ritual and mediation also.. 3)Energetic Taoist (My term) Alot of these types (including myself) on this forum. These are folks who are attracted to the energetic practices usually associated with Taoism like, martial arts, Qigong, Tai Chi and meditation. Keep in mind that it would be very unlikely for someone to be only one of these categories but instead would be a varied blending of them all. Check this poll for more discussion: What type of Daoist are you? Also keep in mind that there are both Taoist sympathizers and Taoist adherents. Sympathizers, who would make up the vast majority of members here, are people who use Taoism as a supplement to enrich their lives whether that's through philosophy, cultivation or whatever. Adherents are people who have fully adopted the path of Taoism (again in whatever mix of philosophy, religion, and cultivation is relevant to them). Most often, but not necessarily always, adherents have engaged in formal training and study with a teacher. Initiation is more prevalent in the religious branches of Taoism though numerous Master / disciple relationships would include initiation of sorts. 2) What do Taoists believe and how do they practice their beliefs? I've heard that meditation is one of the practices but I'm not very good at it. This depends on what type of Taoist you are talking about. Each branch will have their slightly different take on what the "goals" are. For example the Quanzhen tradition, which I am most closely aligned with, believes the process of spiritual attainment proceeds through six phases or levels, beginning with personality refinement and conscious refinement and culminating in becoming Tao. Step One: Chi refinement and Natural Meditation as the cultivation of chi. Step Two: Teh Tao: Receiving or discovering the path and learning the Tao. Step Three: Wu Tao: Enlightened by Tao. Step Four: Ming Tao: Lucidified with Tao. Step Five: Teh Tao: Gaining Tao, and Tao also gains you. You live beyond your personal cares. Step Six: Chen Tao: Attaining Tao. Your physical presence gradually merges with the invisible reality of Tao, but you are still able to respond, if you choose, and appear in form. You have achieved spiritual immortality, not physical immortality in the ordinary sense of a life that needs to eat, sleep, and pay taxes." Here is a traditional list of Taoist practices: ~ Nei Tan, Internal Medicine, which can support a person's spiritual future through refinement of the physical, mental and spiritual essence, ~ Tai Shi, Internal Breathing, which is higher than external breathing, although both are usually practiced together, ~ Tao Yin, Energy Channelling, for purposes of health and spiritual benefit, ~ Chun Shih, Visualization or concentration, ~ Fu Erh, External Nutrition, using natural herbs and other things, ~ Shing Jeau, Walking, for gathering and refining energy, ~ Fuh Chi, Internal Energy Maintenance, ~ Bei Gu, to stop eating food completely (especially helpful to those who are cultivating spiritually so that they can stop looking for and preparing food for themselves - eventually they combine their life with the environment), ~ Fu Chi, Intaking Natural Energy through breathing and swallowing, which should be practiced with Bei Gu, ~ Fang Jung, Sexual Cultivation, ~ Fu Jyeo, Secret Talismanic Characters, Words and also Invocations, ~ Jing Tan, Golden Elixir, ~ Shr Jeah, Method of Exuviation into a New Life." 3) Are there any rules/laws (ex. the Ten Commandments in Christianity)? If yes, what are they? If no, why not? 4) What's the stand on things like abortion, divorce, gay rights, etc? Or is that subject to personal opinion? Once again it depends on the type of Taoism. Some advocate celibacy whilst other branches go as far as to promote sex as part of cultivation. If anything there is the San Bao (three treasures): Frugality Compassion Humility To this I might add: Appropriate response: in that we endeavor to respond appropriately in any given situation Subtle view: in that we avoid being fixated to conceptual descriptions 5) What's the best (or most reliable) translation of the Tao Te Ching? I just ordered the Jane English version. What other books/websites would you recommend for someone interested in Taoism? What's the best tree to piss up against? Each translator will render the text based on their fundamental world view. Mine works best for me because ... well ... its mine Always do some comparisons and find which one "speaks" to you the best. Have a look at Translation Resources 6) What's the stance on deity? Again it depends. Mostly its the religious Taoist sects that worship dieties and those that are worshiped are more about masters who have become immortal rather than creator gods. Other gods, like the Jade Emperor for example, are representations or embodiments of Universal forces or principles. Here's a list of the common dieties: Laozi / Lao Tzu 老子 Eight Immortals (Baxian / Pa-hsien 八仙) Fu Xi / Fu Hsi 伏羲 Guan Yu 关羽 Chang'e 嫦娥 (Goddess of the Moon) Huangdi 黄帝 (Yellow Emperor) Jade Emperor (Yu Huang 玉皇) Sanqing 三清 (Three Pure Ones) Xiwangmu 西王母 (Queen Mother of the West) Hope this helps

"Hey honey, I would really like to brush up on my singing skills. I have found this great singing teacher who says they will teach us both at the same time for the price of one lesson. Maybe we could end up doing some duets together. What do you think?"

Yup I was thinking the same. Thank you for reinforcing this. Have changed it to "Ancient Seal / Bronze Characters". Sure I see your point. Lines 11 and 12 are definitely focused around shèngrén, the sage, whilst you could chose to see lines 13 through 16 as focused around wànwù, the 10,000 things. However Line 17 once again references the sage with 夫 Fū: "a sage, a wise man, a distinguished person.” So it would seem to be clumsy prose to bounce back and forward like that, at least in my view that is. However, as I have mentioned, I see Chapters 1 and 2 as a framing of what I have chosen to refer to as the Taoist "Subtle View" (see line 8 of Chapter 1). I also see Chapter 2 as an instruction of how to maintain one's inner wholeness of vitality (i.e. Nourishing Life) by avoiding the internal separation created through conceptual fixation. So within that context it makes much more sense to allow lines 13 through 16 to be sage-centric. I have added your post here to my notes if that's OK. Very much appreciated. As always thank you Done

Chapter Two -- Nourishing Life As soon as the collective view Declares beauty to be beautiful, Disgusting is also declared. As soon as the collective view Declares virtue to be virtuous, Evil is also declared. In the same way, Life and death originate each other, Difficult and easy accomplish each other, Long and short measure each other, Superior and inferior implicate each other, Sound and hearing harmonize each other, Before and after sequence each other. Accordingly the sage: Employs liberality when managing, Observes quietude when teaching, Allows things to rise and pass Without snaring them with words, Creates without taking possession, Acts without presuming reward, Succeeds without making claim. Truly, the sage never fixate themselves, Thus they never depart from themselves. Stigweard's Daodejing 道德經 Original Text: Translator's Notes and Commentary:

Chapter One -- Embodying Dao Descriptions of Dao, Cannot be the eternal Dao. Though names may be given, They cannot be eternal names. Unknown is Heaven and Earth's inception; Knowing begets the many separate things. Therefore, enduring innocence Comes from the subtle view; Incessant desire for things Comes from the superficial view. Both “unknown” and “known”, The “subtle” and the “superficial”, Are still only descriptions, Of the subtle mystery. Subtle beyond subtlety, The gateway of all wonders. Stigweard's Daodejing 道德經 Original Text: Translator's Notes and Commentary:

Chapter Two -- Nourishing Life As soon as the collective view Declares beauty to be beautiful, Disgusting is also declared. As soon as the collective view Declares virtue to be virtuous, Evil is also declared. In the same way, Life and death originate each other, Difficult and easy accomplish each other, Long and short measure each other, Superior and inferior implicate each other, Sound and hearing harmonize each other, Before and after sequence each other. Accordingly the sage: Employs liberality when managing, Observes quietude when teaching, Allows things to rise and pass Without snaring them with words, Creates without taking possession, Acts without presuming reward, Succeeds without making claim. Truly, the sage never fixate themselves, Thus they never depart from themselves. Original Text: Translator's Notes and Commentary: ^ Back to index ^

Comments and discussion welcomed.

With the events and circumstances of late it has become obvious to me that I cannot in all conscience maintain my position as a moderator. I won't go into minute detail of the reasons behind my decision, enough to say that my views on what is fair and accountable in terms of moderation is incompatible with elements within the moderation team. This is truly the most saddest and disappointing moment for me with my involvement with TaoBums. Regards Stigweard

Heya folks, Cheers for the comments made here. I'd like to make it very clear that, though I had heated discussions with a couple of the other moderators, my main issue, as it turns out, was not really "with" any of the other moderators. Neither has my decision been overly influenced by those whom some are calling "bullies". The people who have been raising concerns are well in their right to do so and it's an indication of how damn wonderful this forum is that they have. Truth be known I actually agree with many of the statements made. No, the main reasons for my decision to resign comes from the fundamental intent and direction that the moderation team was created on and the responsibility for this finds its way squarely back in Sean's lap. The way a tree grows depends on how the seed was sown and the results we have seen on the board recently find their root back to how the moderation team was formed and propagated. Sean knows how I feel about this and I have confidence in his integrity that he will respond appropriately. There is one thing I really want to say. I think Mal is perhaps the most lovable chap I have ever known. If he has any fault at all its that he cares too much. He has generously given to this forum in ways far beyond what many of us could or would do. Though he can be a bloody stubborn block-head in sticking to what he believes in, I really couldn't have more respect for another person like I do for Mal. I think one of the greatest travesties of what has occurred is that it's been quite awhile since I have had the pleasure of seeing the happy-go-easy delightful posts with which Mal would often grace the board. As a final note it really needs to be said that this is all just a creation of human imperfection. Not a single one of us can say that we operate on TaoBums with a heart and mind spotlessly free of "issues". Sean's imperfections created a ripple, the moderator's imperfections (mine included) continued that ripple and added more to it, and the member's imperfections added even more cross-waves until we have the mini-tidal wave we have seen. It's nobody's "fault", and yet it is everybody's "fault". Every person involved, without exception, was acting out of the united belief of how amazing this forum is and the desire to preserve and nurture the spirit of TaoBums. Sometimes when we are hammering away at each others words we can forget this and wrongly see enemies when in truth we are all fighting for the same thing, I know I am guilty of this. There are no enemies amongst us, there is no "us and them", we are all just a bunch of bums floundering our way through the wilderness, trying to make sense of it all, and yet united by the fact that we are all in this together. I believe this "togetherness", that each of us contributes to, is where the real spirit of TaoBums lies and it is with that same "togetherness" that we will work our way through the current turbulence and co-create ways and means to make our participation with TaoBums even more enjoyable and rewarding.

And I would likewise hope that the members who are attacking the moderators would except my challenge of examining their desire for revenge because they have personal "issues" with said moderators. For example, rookie you are gunning for me. How much of your campaign is powered by the fact that you and I have had very heated and very personal arguments with each other before I became a moderator? Are you truly being honest with everybody here? And I will extend that challenge to certain of the other members on the moderator warpath. Some of you I know have been recipients of our actions. Most of those actions are 100% justified and I am sure if we publicly aired the evidence then all members would agree that our actions were appropriate. Some actions however, as we can see, are questionable and need to be reviewed. If, under that review, an action is deemed incorrect then I know that appropriate actions will be taken to both make reparations and to make sure such an error won't happen again. We all need to be more accountable and responsible -- moderators included.

Actually resigning would be the easy option to take wouldn't it? I also think it would be the truly selfish option as well because I would be doing it either to prove that I am not attached to the role or because I didn't want the "burden" of the responsibility nor the scrutiny and criticism that comes with it. And if I did resign would that improve anything for the community? Would that actually solve the issues being presented in this thread? Nope, the issue would still be there. That would mean that whoever picked up the ball next would be loaded with the same "burden" without the experience behind them. I would also be abdicating responsibility for the situation. The mere fact that I am part of the moderation team means that I am part of the "problem" that certain people are taking issue with. As far as I am concerned it would be the cowards way out to not stand up and hold myself accountable; I would be just passing the buck off to someone else. If I thought resigning would benefit the community the most then sure, I'd resign in an instant. Please take my word on that. Moderation isn't about power or privilege to me, but I will admit that I have a selfish motive. You see for me its about the growth and development that its forcing me to undergo. Just as one example, look at the scrutiny I have opened myself up to in this thread -- every barb and every cutting remark is another blow against my self-importance. I am getting like a year's worth of introspection in just one topic. Valuable stuff! But the issue here is not "who" is a moderator, the main issues I see here is both that there is moderation of TaoBums in the first place and also some limited cases of how it has been delivered. To the first issue I think folks just need to get over the fact that TaoBums is now a moderated forum. We have a set of Moderation Guidelines that is open to full scrutiny, criticism, and amendment. And we have a small team of folks who do their best to monitor and uphold those guidelines. That's just the way it is ... deal with it. The issue of how moderation is being delivered is perhaps the only issue that can be discussed. I will admit I have personally made mistakes. There were times when I have lost my objectivity. There were times when I have allowed personal feelings and opinions cloud my judgement. There were times when I took action when I shouldn't have. There were times when I did nothing when I should have taken action. I have made mistakes and I take responsibility, hold myself accountable, and sincerely apologize for each and every one of those mistakes. But let's be honest with each other here, I think another issue that needs to be discussed here is the personal responsibility and accountability of the members who are raising these issues. The onus was placed on me to be truly honest and open with my motives as a moderator, and my entire record is open for inspection and criticism. Are the detractors willing to do the same? How many of the critics are members who have instigated, through their behavior, the need for moderators to take action against them? Are you willing to have your record laid bare for public inspection in the same way that is demanded of us? I think a bit of honesty both ways might help the issue as well. So the question is: "Where to from here?"

Not my personal problem? hmmm... You are saying in very direct terms that "there is something wrong with me", that I have "created a toxic environment". How is that "not my personal problem"? But I will take myself to task on something you said. I admit it was ill-considered of me to make comments that imply that people who get moderated might be considered "trash" or "half-witted". Though it was truly said in jest, it was my error of not thinking well enough on how that might be taken. So I most humbly apologize for my insensitivity and, if anyone was offended, I sincerely ask for your forgiveness. But to return to the issue. Firstly I want to thank those who have posted their discontent in this topic. That you are discussing the issue means that you care enough about TaoBums to voice your concerns. Let's deal with reality here. TaoBums is a moderated forum with a team of moderators who follow these Moderation Guidelines. No one has taken the opportunity to voice their opposition to the contents of those guidelines so I am going to assume that they are acceptable to the significant majority (once again I open the floor to discuss those guidelines in that thread). TaoBums is going to remain a moderated forum for the foreseeable future. The TaoBum moderators, being ordinary members who have volunteered to provide a service, have and will continue to do their best to uphold those guidelines. The TaoBum moderators are human and most definitely will screw up from time to time. The TaoBum moderators will take responsibility for their actions and will accept being held accountable for screw ups IF it is clear that they have indeed screwed up. To that last point, if anyone has an issue with anything I have done personally as a moderator then let's have it out here and now.

You want to take me to task over it? Fine ... lets do some moderating then. Take my exact words: "But let me reemphasize my personal position ... the moderators are the lowest rung on the ladder, we are just the muck sweepers and drain-hole scrubbers that do their best to stay out of sight and only come into view when some half-wit jams the toilet up with too much toilet paper " Now do what I do and compare it to the Moderation Guidelines Let's see ... if I have violated any guidelines they are: * Making personal insults of other members * Profanity and vulgar language OK first item ... have I personally insulted other members? Well if you want to assume that I am calling members who violate our guidelines "half-wits" then maybe I am. But as a moderator I always make the effort to try and see it from the perspective of the person who wrote it. Now I can see that the person was just trying to create a humorous analogy of themselves being a janitor and having to run around unplugging blocked toilets. If anything the poster was actually deprecating themselves. So, though the poster may not have used the best analogy, they are certainly not making a personal insult of any particular member ... conclusion: "No Foul" Second item ... well obviously no profanities or vulgarities were written. Conclusion: "No Foul" So with no violation determined the discussion is left untouched and the members wouldn't even know that we had been investigating.