Stigweard

A few things to respond to... Firstly let me talk about my underlying intent. The world of IMA is a mess right now. With no established system of accountability there are numerous "masters" claiming all sorts of nonsense attracting followers and scamming people out of big dollars. Yet there is not one single scrap of credible evidence that any of their claims are true. Without this credible evidence the IMA is a world-wide joke. [As a side note, there is a growing body of evidence for qigong healing that is being collected at The Qigong Institute ... if only the IMA would follow suit.] The fundamental reason The Fajin Project on FB was started was because of a single question that was asked: "Why is there not a single scrap of credible evidence that this Subtle Jin works for real (i.e. in real combat or at the very least in a controlled scientific environment)?" Let me clarify the terminology. When I say "Subtle Jin" I mean the light or no touch versions ... just touching someone's arm or body and they go bouncey bounce down the hall ... or the no touch versions. Credible evidence, as listed in the brackets, is either proving you can produce Fajin in a real combat environment or in a controlled scientific environment. All of these "experts" in fajin power are claiming that it is this that gives them some sort of superior ability in a combat environment. Why then isn't MMA comps across the world being dominated by fajin experts?? And why is there not a single video clip on Youtube, or anywhere, that shows this skill working in "real life"? A common, and rather worn out response is, "Why would a master subject themselves to such violence and risk of injury just to prove something they already know to be real?" My response is, "Why are they pretending to be superior combatants if they aren't willing to prove it in that environment?" Another response is, "It is too dangerous to demonstrate it on anyone?" OK so if this were true then why do we have all these video demos of teachers performing fajin on students?? The frequent answer here is, "Students are taught how to receive fajin properly." I wonder if anyone else sees the problem in this statement ?? Let me spell it out ... it's called preconditioned responses. I recently had a discussion with a chap over at the FB group about a vid of him being bounced around by a certain master. His comment was, "The first time the master tried his no-touch fajin on me it didn't work, I just walked right up to him and touched him. But after training with him for awhile, all of a sudden the fajin worked and I was being bounced away." Errm ??? This is why there are zip, zilch and zero number of videos of these demos being performed on non-compliant and non-complicit subjects. The students are being preconditioned to react in a certain way according to the "signals" the teacher is giving ... it is a form of collective hypnosis. Back to the line of thought though ... so let's drop the insistence on these "masters" proving their claims in combat. There is a non-violent option which is to conduct a testing protocol where we can replicate what these "masters" are doing on their own students. Rather than detail it here, the testing protocol can be found: https://www.facebook.com/groups/thefajinproject/doc/421119777927083/ Now initially it was a rather simple and earnest initiative. Just myself and a few others who really wanted to see some baseline data to be accumulated. And I want to emphasize that ... we were/are simply interested in getting some serious research done to help progress the art. However we were met with the same obtuse carry-on that you are demonstrating here Dorian. Namely egotistical verbosity, ad homien attacks, and lame school-yard threats and challenges. Let me point out that "coming to feel it for myself" is NOT credible evidence. Mere anecdotal evidence and carries no quantification necessary for proper investigation. This is not just about my beliefs or experiences, it is about "advancing the empirical and practical investigation of Fajin within the Chinese Martial Arts". So instead of mature, rational discussion, we were, and obviously still are, met with immature BS as a rather pathetic veneer covering up the fact that noone can satisfactorily answer the pivotal question mentioned above. Actually, to be fair, one "teacher" has given his reasons for not doing the testing, and that was Adam Mizner who has admitted that he won't do any testing because "the mystery is part of what pays the bills". So he would prefer to keep people ignorant of the truth in order to sell his seminar tickets. So after putting up with several months of this, we started up the The Fajin Project inviting folks in to "prove" there stuff. Several notables and their groupies have tried to "prove" their shtick using the same old process by saying things like: Science can never prove the reality of Qi, You have to feel it yourself, that's your "evidence", If you can't do fajin you haven't learned "real Tai Chi", How dare you disrespect me by asking these questions, Real fajin is counter-intuitive and thus cannot be rationalized, Blah blah blah. Inevitably they end up saying lots but just as inevitably fail to answer the pivotal question: "Why is there not a single scrap of credible evidence that this Subtle Jin works for real (i.e. in real combat or at the very least in a controlled scientific environment)?" It has also been an invariable case that every one of these masters quickly fades away behind a well rehearsed list of "exit clauses" as soon as the testing protocol is put before them. Let me emphasize here, yes Qi energy cannot be measured directly, as in being able to measure it in the same way we can measure light frequency, or heat etc. But the effects of this Fajin power CAN be measured ... in fact all the vids you see on Youtube is these "masters" trying to prove that they are demonstrating fajin in a measurable way. The problem here is that, invariably, ALL the "tests" are done on compliant and complicit students of said teacher. Thus EVERY one of these videos are disqualified as "credible evidence". All we are saying is, "lets reproduce your demos but lets do it in a controlled environment using as close to a double blind study as possible." Now it was suggested in the process, "Why don't you just put impact sensors on a bag?" Great idea!! But no, according to Exit Clause #293, it will only work on a living being. "Well, why don't you do it on an animal like a horse? You know, do your fajinny thing and make the horse bounce ???" Well according to Exit Clause #345 it only really works on a human being. "Well, how about we get a bunch of MMA boys together and you can demonstrate your thing on them??" Exit Clause #8874: No I might hurt them too bad, they must be "prepared" to receive my uber-awesome-hit-like-a-small-truck power first. At this point most of these "teachers" resort to insults and threats. Let me reemphasize something ... whilst we may not be able to measure the "stuff" producing the power (i.e. qi, jin, etc), we CAN measure the outputting results by its effect on another object. As a synonymous example, the Qigong Institute have a study that shows the growth rate of bacteria in a petri dish can be manipulated by a qigong master depending on his intent ... How friggen fantastic is that !!! They haven't measured Qi, but they are showing that "it" can have an influence on another organism. So the question remains ... why don't any of these "teachers" have the testicular fortitude to step up and prove their schtick in a controlled scientific environment?? There is $1.5million in prize money available to them if they do ...

Heya Dorian, we haven't chatted on this level before so I will try and paraphrase what I, and other IMAs are doing on The Fajin Project. From the group description: A group dedicated to advancing the empirical and practical investigation of Fajin within the Chinese Martial Arts. Our Modus Operandi is: Continue to question, research, learn & fill in the pieces without ever assuming we are correct. However it has to be asked: "Why is there not a single scrap of credible evidence that this Subtle Jin works for real (i.e. in real combat or at the very least in a controlled scientific environment)?" Idle anecdotes or claims without being backed up with some hard evidence are frivolous and irrelevant to the main purpose of this group. The primary purpose is not to debunk or publicly shame any person, style, school or tradition. However, if in the process of investigation false claims are revealed then that is as it should be. As a part of this process we are offering "claimants" the opportunity to win $1.5million: The $1.5million Fajin Challenge So contrary to your assumption Dorian, I don't need him to come to Australia, I am sure there would be a science organization close by who would be more that accommodating. Just so you know, anecdotal evidence (i.e. come and feel it for yourself) is not credible evidence at all. What I (we) are looking for is someone who can prove their shtick in a controlled scientific environment. Again, not to debunk or disprove, but to get an accumulation of baseline data to advance the IMA. If you are so "sure" Gary has "the stuff" than I am sure $1.5million would be an attractive offer.

Challenge accepted, please direct Gary to this page and I will be happy to accommodate him: https://www.facebook.com/groups/thefajinproject/doc/454984937873900/

Is this the "one vibration" that you were referring to ??

Only a few days left ... over $1000 raised which is awesome !!!

I hugged a tree today ... I felt pretty defined by that

Oh for FFS ... I truly wish insecure men would stop externalizing and projecting their BS fear of women by demonizing them. WOMEN ARE AWESOME !! THEY CAN HAVE SEX FOR LONGER THAN YOU !! THEY CAN GIVE BIRTH !! THEY BLEED ONCE A MONTH !! THEY ARE MYSTERIOUS !! Get the HELL over it !!!

Errm ... nope ... no etymological connect. wife (n.) Old English wif "woman," from Proto-Germanic *wiban (cf. Old Saxon, Old Frisian wif, Old Norse vif, Danish and Swedish viv, Middle Dutch, Dutch wijf, Old High German wib, German Weib), of uncertain origin. Dutch wijf now means, in slang, "girl, babe,"

Heya folks ... 9-days to go !!!

Ah ... a true man of culture !!! Let me share as well... from my China trip in 2009:

Ahh ... Infusing my soul Tranquility in a cup Divine, sublime ... tea

What defines a Daoist? Hmmm ... it would have to be the quality of their tea methinks ...

I have worked professionally as a "stage magician" since 2000 ... how do you define "real magic" ?

Nice ... now up to $815 ... that gets me a decent camera ... love to get to $1500 though ;)Nice ... now up to $815 ... that gets me a decent camera ... love to get to $1500 though

Woohoo!!! $620 raised to buy a camera/software to help get my ebooks done. 16 days to go ... who else would like to help out and score some cheap Tai Chi instruction ??? http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/learn-tai-chi-online-ebook-project

This would be my advice also ... if you do the form "properly" it teaches you how to breathe. Too much focus on "special" breathing can be an artificial practice.

Very nice speculation ... interesting.

Heya Flowing Hands, Firstly I will say a big thanks for the Shaman's head wearing antlers connection ... I should have seen that years ago and am very grateful that you have pointed that out. A quick look at some of the seal characters confirms you are more than likely correct: The whole "corruption" idea is dualistic thinking ... by labeling something as corrupt you create something that must be "pure", just as long and short measure each other, and forward and back separate each other. As a point of balance, if it wasn't for the religious aspects of Daoism then there is a rather likely chance none of the texts preserved in the Daozhang would have survived to the modern era for you to even have the chance to comment about Daoism. Just a thought... This I agree with completely.

1. Study what you believe in ... meaning be knowledgeable about the belief or practice system. Understand where it came from, understand the context and culture that conceived it. Understand the theory, understand the purpose. 2. Practice what you believe in ... don't just be content with superficial conceptual understanding. Practice and explore your belief/practice so that it emanates from the marrow of your bones. 3. Never assume you know it ... life is ever-evolving. What is right is relative and could be wrong tomorrow. Life is mysterious and there are many layers of subtlety within any act of knowing.

You know Mark the reason why I am inclined to draw away from having a discussion with you is your demonstrated tendency to create straw dog arguments ... you misrepresent what I have said and argue against those incorrect assumptions. It is exceptionally frustrating to try and engage with you when you do this. For example, nowhere did I mention that that article was my "main source", in truth it was the result of a 3min Google Scholar search and I threw it in because it was relevant and I would prefer to be using correctly presented research as a basis of discussion rather than personal opinions and biases. Also I did not try and say that Zhuangzi and the Xian practices were of the "same tradition" prior to the Han synthesis. I said that the they were contemporaneous, meaning that they were prevalent within Chinese culture at the same chronological time, and therefore any assertion that the philosophy preceded these metaphysical/religious practices is factually incorrect. Lao/Zhuang philosophy and the metaphysical/religious rituals, ceremonies, and practices certainly are an integral part of the same tradition by the simple virtue that they were brought together in the collection of texts, scriptures, and practices categorized by rubric "Daojia"; a collection that subsequently became the Daozhang which proceeded through the centuries as the central cannon of the philosophical/metaphysical/religious tradition that Westerners have termed Dao-ism. On a personal level I certainly agree with the sentiment that the orthodox religious trappings of modern Daoist sects is somewhat of a turn-off. I prefer to keep my practice on the level of enjoying the philosophy, practicing arts like Qigong, Taijiquan, Neidan, chilling out with nature and also engaging in some of the ceremonial/ritual aspects. But I have enough pragmatic honesty to give full acknowledgement to the tradition of Daojia/Daoism as it is without trying to twist and manipulate it to suit my own personal preferences. So please Mark, I would truly appreciate it if you take an extra moment with my words to understand them properly. This is a worthy discussion and I would like to keep tossing it around.

Mark, once again you are repeatedly missing my point and I really don't feel the need or inclination to repeat myself to try and make you understand what I have been saying. Maybe at some other time I would have been happy to re-paraphrase myself in order to help you see my view of it, but right now I just don't have that inclination. Be well my friend.

I would only be able to speak as a Taijiquan teacher ... would this qualify ??

You are completely missing a fundamental point Mark ... a couple of them in fact. ... In fact ... no I wont repeat myself again ... I have spoken to point clear enough here recently and also previously in this thread. If you still don't get it then I guess that is as it is. Daoism is a synergy of philosophical, alchemical, and religious tenets. Every scrap of historical evidence supports this. You are welcome to prefer the philosophy over the other aspects, but please don't try and discount or discredit the other aspects in favor of your view.

There is quite alot I could say at this point ... unfortunately I don't have the time right now to dedicate an appropriate response (though in reviewing the previous pages of the thread I have already said quite sufficient to the point). I will however share this article because it is both pertinent and pragmatic when dealing with this issue: http://www.sas.upenn.edu/~nsivin/from_ccat/perp.pdf I will quickly point out that the mere suggestion that Taoism is a philosophy only and somehow is a more "purer" version is simply a fabrication and is not in anyway supported by historical evidence. Ofuchi Ninji said in 1969: "There was no Taoism - no community of interest or consciousness of shared conviction among early sects now considered Taoist - until it was created by the classification of scriptures." This synthesis, under the classifcation of Taojia, brought together scriptures and practices that shared the same or similar indigenous Chinese ontology. Laozi and Zhuangzi were apart of this collective, but so were scriptures like Liezi and the Neiye that have the SAME vintage as the classical two philosophical works. The mere fact that Zhuangzi directly mentions Xian practices, albeit with a critical tone, is evidence enough that the esoteric practices were, at the least contemporaneous with said philosophical works. If analysis is true then the scriptures like the Huangdi Neijing predates the Laozi and Zhuangzi by several centuries. The point being is that ALL of it is Taoism. You cannot raise one aspect of it and say "this is the purest part", or "this part preceded all the others". That is just simple BS. Yes, sure, you may personally subscribe to certain elements of it ... and yes sure you can say that you are a philosophical Daoist indicating that you are only interested in the philosophy. But to try and say that that "bit" is the "true and only Daoism" is just pure bigotry.