Stigweard

Oh for goodness sakes see it in the humorous context in which it was was intended Seriously, here you are whinging about "stifling atmosphere" and "freedom of speech" and then start then jumping all over my words trying to draw implications when there are none. And your words say alot as well. Notice how you wouldn't address me directly instead addressing me as "them" ... this isn't an "us vs them" situation. By the good spirits! We are ORDINARY MEMBERS who have VOLUNTEERED to render a service to a forum that we love enough to sweep the floors and clean the lavatories.

Sorry, whilst it may be a nice ideal, that doesn't work in all situations. If, for example, a member starts abusing and insulting another member with vulgar language I wouldn't hesitate to send them on an immediate TaoBums vacation ... I am certainly not going to stop for a nice chat about it first. Once again in regards to the OP, I don't give a toss for shaping discussions or adding value to anything. I have a very short and very reasonable list of violations to monitor. You can choose to either stay within those guidelines or you can choose to break them, and if you do choose to break them then one of the moderators will take action. If this upsets your sense of freedom of speech then you are very welcome to exercise your free right to choose whether or not you come here. It really doesn't get much more simpler than that.

I'll show you my rock collection if you be nice Again depends on your definition of wisdom. Wisdom at its roots means "to see," hence "to know". Qigong practice teaches you to "see" the energetic make-up of oneself and one's world. That sort of direct knowing is closer to the truth than any sit-on-your-ass contemplation. You see the trouble you have yourself in here is that you think you already know something. You think you know what qigong is all about without ever actually having done it. By assuming you know you preclude yourself from learning. Learning and achievement is progressive development. Here I concede to what you are saying and agree with you. The way I teach Kung Fu is by learning principles of movement and interaction through hours of improvised movement drills. However, just as form and formless originate each other, I also make sure students learn the traditional forms and drills (i.e. the recipes). Let's use your examples then ... perhaps the Jazz player is a good one. The musician still has to learn and understand the basic principles of music in order to play music. They still have to understand pitch, rhythm, timbre, dynamics, melody, harmony, tempo, rhythmic-pattern, metre, unity, symmetry, tension-relaxation etc. So there are some basic constants in music you need to learn whether you learn via free-form improvisation or whether you learn via structured form-work. Qigong is the same and the principles include breathing, posture, relaxation, unity of movement, symmetry, tempo, awareness, intent, internal stillness, working with the basic framework and rhythmic patterns of the human and environmental energy changes (i.e. wuxing, yijing) etc. So yes, if you were to adhere to the fundamental principles of qigong, then you could achieve the results without having to conform to the forms. The very big "however" is whether or not you can learn these correct principles on your own without either a teacher or without a qigong form to practice with.

I can only speak for myself here my friend. I remind myself daily that I am just the Janitor here. I sweep the floors and I take out the trash. We have a real simple set of Moderation Guidelines. If anyone has issue with those guidelines then I whole-heartedly encourage you to get stuck into the discussion in that thread. Again speaking just for myself, I don't really give much thought to "shaping the discussions". All I concern myself with is comparing people's contributions to those guidelines, and if a particular post doesn't match up, then my "Janitor's Radar" flags that post as "trash to be dealt with". And, if a particular member's posts have a habit of being "trash" then that member will also find themselves labeled the same and likewise be appropriately dealt with. It doesn't get much more simpler than that. There is no doubt that Sean brought moderators online in an attempt to clean things up a bit. There were cases where members were totally out of order but it would take Sean days to be able to respond. So, because he couldn't do the job effectively, the moderation team was created. Are we getting it 100% right? Hell no! Are we doing the best we can? Damn straight we are! Will we screw up in the future? No doubt about it! I think it's important to realize that the moderation team are just members who have volunteered to be of service to all the other members. I know some people who have authority issues and some people who can't help but indulge in conspiracy theories might be inclined to think that we have some sort of sinister or contrived modus operandi. But let me reemphasize my personal position ... the moderators are the lowest rung on the ladder, we are just the muck sweepers and drain-hole scrubbers that do their best to stay out of sight and only come into view when some half-wit jams the toilet up with too much toilet paper

Heya GIH ... I certainly hear you and, in some cases, I will agree that some qigong systems have been narrowly described. Perhaps it is an attempt by the lineage holders and/or marketers to make their system sound unique and somehow superior. I am sure we could find examples of this Let's have a closer look at some of your comments though: The bad thing is that you don't get wiser about phenomena and you still follow things as if they are real. That is incorrect and practice will reveal it so. Through my practice I have seen the most tangible link between my mind-content and the experiences I have both within my body and within my general life. If we understand the fundamental causation of phenomena through direct experiencing of it, that equates as wisdom to me. There are ways to get all the same results as in qi gong without the limitations of qi gong. That's accomplishable by anyone who understands the general principles and truths behind phenomenal manifestations and intent in a very broad and deep sense. A dumb yet fastidious and determined person can build a combustion engine based on a schematic. By someone who understands laws of physics at a more general level can build an infinite multitude of engines of which combustion engines are a subclass, and such person can build many different combustion engines instead of just one. I agree with you. But what about the poor sod who doesn't "understand the general principles and truths behind phenomenal manifestations and intent in a very broad and deep sense"? Again I will emphasize that proper qigong teaches this. Think of it like training wheels. First we give ourselves a narrow set of guidelines in which to grow and learn. Then as our ability to maintain our own equilibrium develops and our knowledge of the principles grows we can do away with the training wheels and ride under our own steam. Same thing ... we learn a specific set of practices that both teach us the fundamental principles and gives us the benefits of the practice. Eventually, with due practice, we understand the general principles and understand the uses of intent and then we can "free-wheel" it on our own and don't necessarily have to conform to or depend on the narrow practices any more. It's also like learning music (or anything really) ... first you learn the scales and you diligently practice the classics of the masters. Then, when you have enough understanding of the principles, you can compose your own music. The practice of scales and the forms that have been created by the Masters that have come before us comes first though. Qi gong is deluded in the sense that when people learn one recipe, they can certainly show amazing results because a tasty recipe is still a tasty recipe, but then they pretend to be a chef, which is a different category of a sentient being with different aspirations from someone who studies qi gong. This is a rash and ill-considered judgement. You are saying that because a few people falsely claim to be qigong masters when they have only learned one form then all qigong is delusional. It would be like me saying: "All music is deluded because there are people who learn to play one song well and then pretend to be world-class musicians." Any rational person would view that statement as BS ... yours falls into the same category. Qi gong requires absolutely no wisdom. It requires some sensitivity, common sense, and just lots and lots and lots of practice. A dumb but diligent and careful person can be a big success in qi gong. Such person will still be an idiot though. LOL ... sorry my friend again you reveal the fact that you haven't trained enough to form a proper evaluation. I know you esteem your contemplative and cognitive abilities to view a thing and believe you know it, and to be honest with you I admire most of your insights. This is one of the exceptions however. You need LOTS of sensitivity, yes you need common sense, and most definitely you need lots and lots of practice. However, without the wisdom and discipline of being able to maintain your intent, awareness, and attention impeccably then all you are doing is calisthenics. Perhaps we differ in what we believe wisdom to be. The dogmas of qigong are definitely bullshit. For example, meridians, dan tien, all that is bullshit. It's all optional and mind-made. You can put your energy storage point into any location. It doesn't have to be dan tien. You can even put it outside the body, or even inside some abstract space that doesn't coincide with physical space at all. It doesn't have to be a point. It doesn't have to be any shape. It can be a square or a pyramid or a sphere. The very idea of "storage" is bullshit to begin with. So all the configurations, locations, directions of flows, all that is cultural, conditional and individual. People cannot accept such shifty things as real though, so they try to physicalize them by making these things dogmatically solid, in other words, dan tien is always in the same place in the stomach, etc. This gives things an aura of physicality, solidity and then people can believe in these things given their delusions which expect solidity everywhere. When building an internal combustion piston engine, is the piston optional? Is the intake camshaft optional? Are they delusional? Of course not, and neither are the components and mechanics of qigong. Take it or leave it. If you want just see them as training tools and guidelines for the beginner until they can learn to fly under their own steam. However, all the mechanics are there due to eons of empirical observation, research, and collection of data. My experiences confirm the mechanics and framework that has been provided and that's good enough for me to find validity in the mechanics and inspires me to study and practice more.

I believe I just did

Seriously though, help me out here folks because I'm just the dumb ol' janitor who only wants to sweep the floors and take out the trash. If I see a topic that starts to degenerate into the slinging of poorly veiled insults, and it's a repeat of the same blasted argument with the same players with an almost cut and paste dialogue, what am I to do? How would you advise the situation to handled from a moderator's point of view? What would Buddhists do about it? What would Taoists do about it? I mean should I just let it be and do nothing? Sorry I can't do that. I've been charged with upholding our guidelines, one of which being "no personal insults". So I gotta do something. How about sending the parties involved polite messages to reconsider how they are interacting? That's already been done. Did it help before? Sure it did at the time but now I see the same people indulging in the same mud-slinging. Perhaps I should suspend them. Well that's happened before already. If I was to follow our guidelines I would simply go, "You, you and you ... you have been told and reprimanded before and you are at it again. So instead of the short 7-day holiday how abouts you take a 45-day vacation." I mean for fraks' sakes, if we were truly living the spiritual traditions we claim we subscribe to I should be the most mindlessly bored and under-worked moderator in the history of the internet. But no, here I am tearing my hair out because we have members acting like ... well ... you know what I mean. So help an ol' bum out here, be it from a Taoist or Buddhist perspective, what do you think I should do to fulfill my responsibility as a moderator??

So in other words, if I was to suspend noone who was involved then I would be right, but if I was to suspend everyone involved then I would still be right. Right?

That's interesting ... I thought your insight into dependent origination didn't allow for "first causes of things". If we practically and literally applied your insight then, because of dependent origination, the target of the thrown stone is just as culpable for the act as the thrower of the stone. So if I, as a moderator, was to suspend the person who threw the "first stone" shouldn't I also suspend the person who mutually created the cause for that stone to be thrown? And then what am I to do if that target turned around and started throwing stones back? Whom am I to suspend?

I have the answer for you ... oh wait up ... no I don't. Darn it! Would you like a cup of tea instead?

Heya Folks, I know current line of discussion is filled with contention and there are some passionate views. I'd just like to add in the polite reminder to be mindful of our Moderation Guidelines, specifically: * Insulting other members * Discrimination whether based on gender, race, religion, culture or creed Perhaps a review of our Principles of Interfaith dialogue might help. Thank you for your consideration on this ... carry on <-- Moderation Team -->

I think it may have been the hopi indians that created the proverb: "The only holy book untouched by man is nature itself ... each day a new page, each turning of the moon a new chapter, each return of the sun a new volume."

As someone who has trained and taught Taiji for many years I will agree that many, many practitioners need a serious wake up call. If you are not pressure testing your style then you are not doing yourself or your students any favors at all. I regularly watch mma fights often to remind myself of this. How would a Taiji player stand up against the likes of Fedor Emelianenko? Most likely they would last 5 seconds if they were lucky (I'd probably last even less ). We have to be realistic with ourselves. I am not training to go in the ring, nor am I training for full combat-zone readiness. I train because I love to train keeping in mind that, at best, my skills would probably handle 80% of what you would commonly see on the street. Put me in a ring though against a trained professional like Fedor and I would have my ass handed to me and probably have a new one torn open to boot. So I agree with the sentiment that the carry-on from a lot of internal martial artists is pure BS. If you want to claim you are superior then train your ass up, get the gloves on and we will see you in the UFC so that you can prove it to us one way or the other. And I also call BS on the response, "It wont work in the UFC because there are too many rules," or "we train to kill so we are doing the opponents a favor by not competing".

Ahh the classic Taomeow post that I have grown to love so much. Thank you!

Of course we have to keep in mind GIH that yours is the opinion of someone who self-admittedly hasn't ever really trained in qigong for a proper length of time (i.e. 3+ years continuous years). Regardless of conceptual theories, there is definitely something to be said for trusting the process and keep practicing until the results are self-apparent. Fortunately the qigong I train (Ba Bao) gives immediate benefits to strength and flexibility whilst you develop the sensitivity to become aware of the "other stuff".

The challenge, I believe, in translations of "nothingness", "origin", "beingness", and "mother", is that they can erroneously lead the mind in the direction of conceptualizing and abstracting these names. But this is exactly what Laozi is warning us against. Because of this I have made a very deliberate effort to render a translation that counters the mind's desire to create things to cling to.

We can see here why Buddhism has won inter-religious debates before. Taoists say what needs to be said and then they go find a local bar for a drink, while Buddhists just keep talking, and talking, and talking, and think they have won because they are the only ones left on the floor.

where is my good heart under which mushroom is it darstedly fairies

OK could you expand on this ... do you mean: Love to hear your thoughts on this.

Don't care for the body. Don't attend to business affairs. Sounds like an old, impotent, fat literati dude who lost all his money on the stockmarket! Did Zhuangzi really say this?? I mean I knew he had a jibe at the hygienists just like Laozi criticized the Naming School ... but really??? When Bodhidharma turned up and witnessed the monks sitting around wasting away he said: "Get off yo big fat asses and do some damn exercise!!" Admittedly I subscribe to the self-cultivation branch of Taoism that advocates the wholesome fulfillment of Jing, Qi and Shen. The body is regarded as a mini-universe and the foundation of the developing Shen. I would love to see the original text this has come from. I am sure that it doesn't mean "don't care for the body". I can accept "don't cling to the body", but to advocate knowledge over integral health just rubs me the wrong way. And "Don't care for business" ... yeah well I can understand that. Damn business nearly sends me round the twist once or twice a year. But hey I am a Warrior and it's a good arena to hone the cutting edge