Stigweard

Sure, why not ... game on

Bump ... for fun

Fair question, and to be honest I don't know. I connect with Fabrizio Pregadio on occasion so I will ask him. To be sure though, Tianshidao scriptures included both philosophical commentary on Laozi as well as dozens of scriptures on rituals and ceremony (apparently a lot of their ritual practice was an attempt to reinvent and eradicate the popular blood-letting rituals of the times). So if we assert that the Tianshidao is the first formalization of a Daoist theocracy then, to link back to the opening post, Komjathy is perfectly correct in articulating the misconception of there being two forms of Daoism, “philosophical Daoism” and “religious Daoism”.

Yes I am more than happy to share ... but you must first demonstrate you know the secret of the three-tea breathing method and be able to hold the temperature of a flame steady using only your mind-intent. Then, and only then, shall you be permitted to enter the inner-gate of the Xian Piaosan (the immortal waft) Lineage.

Anyone for tea? My dad was a tremendous tea-maker, and so was his dad, so I have a fabulous lineage

Likewise I can ask, is there any evidence at all that the Tian Shi Dao were exclusively a Lao-Zhuang school?? To the contrary... We can be confident that the Tian Shi Dao drew their views from various Han and Warring States Period ontological sources. For example, the Taipingjing was a central component of Tian Shi Dao corpus of scriptures and this text dates to the time of Emperor Ch'eng (32-7 BC) (Kaltenmark, "The Ideology of the T'ai-ping ching", p.19). There are also very close links to Mozi (ca. 470-ca. 400 BCE), as well as beliefs and practices that were starkly un-Laozi (like meditating on the gods of the body -- practices that have, interestingly enough, perpetuated into the modern Daozhang). So is there enough evidence that the body of scriptures of the early Tian Shi Dao contained more than Laozi and Zhuangzi? Quite confidently I can say "Yes". http://www.goldenelixir.com/publications/eot_tianshi_dao.html

Meh ... genetic mutations are a natural part of evolution NO FOUL !!! PLAY ON !!!

Good to read your article Mark ... interesting to pick this conversation up again after nearly 2-years I think an important facet of what can be called "Daoism" is well and truly founded in the tumultuous history of the Daozhang. We must remember that Daojia was a term used as to categorize a collection of texts and practices gathered during the "Han synthesis". After the ravages and cultural purges of Legalism, the Han attempted to revitalize the Chinese indigenous culture by gathering as many of the remnant texts into the imperial library. [it must also be noted that Daojia and Daojiao have been used interchangeably and that even Buddhism once used Daojiao to reference its own teachings. It is perhaps a late campaign of Daoist trying to assert their individuality that these terms became a "purely Daoist thing".] And yes, the Tianshi Dao 天師道 certainly formed and rose in prominence as the first organized "religion" around those teachings. Subsequently though, the Daozhang has been destroyed and recompiled several times, with sections lost and new sections added. As such it is, as you have indicated, almost impossible to know with certainty the exact ontology of the early Daoists. It must be noted though that the Daozhang was never about just two texts. Yes the Laozi and Zhuangzi were central and pivotal texts. But within the Daozhang and the Daoist corpus of texts we also have: Shenzi / Shen Tzu 慎子 Liezi / Lieh Tzu 列子 Wenzi / Wen Tzu 文子 Yijing / I Ching 易經 (Book of Changes) Neiye / Nei Yeh 內業 (Inner Cultivation) Huainanzi / Huai-nan Tzu 淮南子 (The Masters of Huainan) Huangdi Neijing 黃帝內經 (Yellow Emperor's Inner Canon) Baopuzi / Pao-p'u-tzu 抱朴子 (Master Who Embraces Simplicity) Taiping Jing 太平清领书 (Scriptures of the Great Peace) Tai Xi Jing / Tai Hsi Ching 胎息經 (Respiration of the Embryo) Knowing this gives me considerable confidence that Daojia/Daojiao/Daoism has never been "just about philosophy". However I will agree wholeheartedly that there have been traditions, like the Lao-Zhuang schools, who were more or solely focused on the philosophical tenets of the "great two" books of Daoism. But, as I have before, I will firmly debate any notion that the philosophy of Laozi or Zhuangzi is somehow the "original" Daoism and the metaphysical or theological aspects were somehow a distorted latecomer. Again, as I have proffered before, I believe the philosophy is only really assimilated through engaging in practices emerging from the same ontological source. However I will admit my own pragmatism (and perhaps western ignorance) when I say that simple pursuits like Taijiquan, Qigong and Neidan are much more digestible than the folk-occultism that many orthodox Daoist sects engage in.

Hahahh ... it would be an honor to be considered a "young dashing" version of Q Ahah ... what style ... so sorry I didn't mention that on the page. I hope that the first installment of 9 ebooks will give people a very strong foundation in the traditional 108 Yang Style form:

Quickly followed by this reality check:

Been awhile ... how doin ??

Heya Mac ... I would very much recommend the Tao Wu Shin monastery up at Mt Tamborine ;-) http://taowushinmonastery.org/monastery.html

You hear a lot on forums like this people talking about what's wrong with the world, or how to change the world for the better. Personally I think all we can and "should" do is live our inner virtue to the fullest ... not for the purpose of changing or achieving anything, but simply because it is the natural thing to do. What do you think ??

In my Taiji practice I aspire for both as one

Here is a story I have heard: Nineteen years after the Yellow Emperor was enthroned he had earned the support and obedience everywhere he ruled. He heard that Kang Cheng Tzu lived on Kun Tung Mountain, so he went to see him and asked, "I heard that you have reached the ultimate level of integral truth. May I request to know the most powerful energy of the ultimate level? I wish to use it to help the growth of crops to feed my people. I also wish to learn to control yin and yang in order to harmonize all things. How can I achieve this?" Kang Cheng Tzu answered, "What you ask lies within the coarse material sphere of things, and what you want is to extend your influence over all things. Do you want to use all those unusual natural phenomena as opportunities to rule the world? Keeping to the narrowness of your mind, how can you understand the path of ultimate truth?" Therefore, the Yellow Emperor separated himself from the affairs of state. He stayed in a specially built house with couch grass on the floor for three months. Then he went to make another request. Kang Cheng Tzu was resting on his bed, facing south, and the Yellow Emperor approached him, walking on his knees. He bowed low, touching his head to the ground and asked, "I hear that you have reached the highest state of the ultimate truth. I beg to know how to cultivate myself to achieve eternal life." Surprised, Kang Cheng Tzu sat up and said, "Well asked! Listen, and I will tell you the highest state of the ultimate truth." Ni, Hua Ching, Workbook for Spiritual Development of All People

Hello Sanzon, I think you may have misunderstood what Wei Wu Wei and Ziran mean It is understandable really because of the quite prolific mistranslation of Wei Wu Wei to mean "no action" ... it seems to give certain people the justification that they can sit on the arses and do nothing. In Laozi, Wei Wu Wei is more of an instruction to a leader to "lead without controlling", to grant people the liberty of being self-determining ... to allow people to be as they are without trying to force them to be anything more or less than their self-so-ness. On an individual level it is to do the same ... to allow yourself to be as you are ... don't try and force yourself to anything more or less ... it is to be whole and complete within your own virtue and allow your life expression to spontaneously and naturally emerge from that integralness. If through this your natural response is to help and heal the ills of the world, then that is your De, your virtue. If through this your natural response is to retreat for awhile into seclusion and "mind your own business", then that is your De, your virtue. To requote myself: When we are doing something that seems like it is effortless and it maintains our integral wholeness and our spiritual equilibrium ... that is wu wei .... that is ziran ... that is being natural.

Love how this quickly moves into one of my favorite topics (and yours to Marbles) ... Ziran and Wei Wu Wei... Ziran means "self-so" ... to be as itself ... just content to be... Wei Wu Wei means to lead without controlling, to act without effort. The two concepts are almost synomynous. There is a great struggle in people between what they think they should be doing and what they love doing. I struggle with this as well. You can end up feeling guilty for doing what you love to do because of the conditioned "inner voices" that keep telling you what you should be doing. And then if you do what you think you "should" be doing you spend that time being resentful and pining for what you would love to do When we are doing something that seems like it is effortless and it maintains our integral wholeness and our spiritual equilibrium ... that is wu wei .... that is ziran ... that is being natural.

Awesome to get another supporter !!!

Had an interesting and rather lively discussion with a good friend about the nature of Tao. A comment was made that "there is no scientific basis for the tao to exist, it is a matter of faith". Thought I would share my response: In fact there is every scientific basis of Tao because Tao is pure and simple mundane, boring old reality. The ancient sages saw that nature has a rhythm, a pulse, a waxing and waning of polarities. They saw that one phase gives rise to another which in turns perishes to give birth to yet another. Every phenomena is dependent and originates on previous phenomena ... an interdependent flow of life. They nicknamed this process of mutually dependent and interchanging polarities "道 - Dao" ... the way. Science tells us exactly the same thing ... that there are natural cycles that are measurable and predictable. That things are born, grow, decay and die. Then the rotting corpses provide fertilizer for the next round of birth. The earth spins and wobbles its way around the sun giving us interchanging night and day, summer and winter. The gravity of the sun creates a harmonious dance of planets as they cycle and spin. Galaxies spiral out on their eternal voyage. Science has proven that the Tao exists as the ancients depicted, except we call it "nature". Remember that Tao is harmonic process or order that the universe seems to be tuned to ... if something happens it happens to a certain set of laws or processes ... that subtle truth is Tao ... not an "it" ... not an abstract concept ... but an very real and mundane process that is observable in practical terms. If we understand the "way" this process evolves then we can learn to be in tune with it and ride it like a surfer rides a wave ... that is being "one with Tao".

Crikey !! We are bringing out some ghosts aren't we ;-) More than happy to play

Only played a little bit of Bagua, same with Xingyiquan ... Taiji man through and through Cheers for your consideration.

Part of the form that will be featured in the eBook...

It's hard, and quite problematic, to say "Taoism is not" anything ... the extremes of the ascetic Quanzhen sect could certainly be referred to has "repressive". http://www.cuhk.edu.hk/ics/journal/articles/v46p444.pdf