Stigweard

I am a student of the College of Tao ... what would you like to know?

Collating the comments and notes made elsewhere in discussions over this paper. ---- "you'd have to market it (to the gov) as a civic service, and show it's benefits, ie, education re another culture, showing documented benefits from studying this from accredited institutions (shouldn't be a problem), practicing meditation, the excercises - and show how it benefits the community at large, eg, offering kids a chance to learn self-discipline and keeping them off the streets x number of days for x number of hours, how students and teachers would give back to the community (community service)"

Collating the comments and notes made elsewhere in discussions over this paper. ----- One challenge might be the point at which the language requirement is introduced. If there from the beginning, it might keep away those who would otherwise benefit - but if it's held back until later - then you might be faced with a large initial group getting what they can, and then dropping out when the lang req kicks in, and that would not be a good situation, imo. ----- For this to happen would likely take an already established "Daoist authority, current tradition holder" to see the benefit of your suggestion. ----- Creating a structure often means " creation " of a set.. known system. But that can also be the exclusion or destruction of given parts of the whole. ----- The problems your survey highlight are real and important. I think we do need a better way. I could tell many tales of unqualified or personally flawed teachers.. how do you find out about sexual abuse from teachers..?? one rather excellent teacher, I know ,does fall into this group. Many questions.. what is best????!!! ----- This proposal is a very healthy one. However, please keep in mind that Taoism was not intended to preach nor to spread the idea to brain wash people, so to speak. People had felt the need to be close to Taoism would make a personal approach to it. Taoism was based on the concept of "wu wei," the natural approach to things. Taoists do not make you believe what they believe, instead, it is strictly on your own to find your own path in a natural way and practice as much as you know. ----- The biggest disadvantage I see for you is that your income is based on you offering this help to others. It's a toughie - having to charge other people for help with their spiritual pursuits so you can survive. ----- The sticking point in your presentation will be appealing to different cultural values in comparison to your own.

An excellent suggestion Apepch In my study attuning to solstices and equinoxes are intrinsic within Taoist practices. The OBOD course has special supplemental materials for the cross-quarter celebrations, I am sure the same can be done within a Taoist context. Thanks for the suggestion.

OMG !!! I am not at all surprised that this particular person wrote this comment. If it is who I believe it to be then I met him personally and can diplomatically say that his nature was overall "caustic". What a shame he would write such a damning perspective of this event, if this is all he got out of it then he really got nothing at all. True it is some westerners acted like Prima donnas, but then again so did some of the Chinese Daoists. There were certainly organizational aspects of the summit that seemed to take "liberties" of the Western attendants. The perspective could certainly be taken, if one chose to (which I am not necessarily saying I am), that the Western presence was simply a bit of "fluff around the edges" to make the organizers feel good about themselves and to promote some sense of Chinese superiority (i.e "See, if these scholars are coming to us then that proves our superiority"). However, these sorts of views only serve to polarize East and West further and is an antithesis, I believe, of the true heart of Daoism. From what I perceived it was only the attendants, Eastern or Western, who weren't practicing the virtue of Dao the indulged themselves in such childish sentiments and poor behavior. I went into this conference with the expressed view of exploring new gateways and bridges between Chinese Daoism and Western students and, from what I saw, it is the undeveloped views like expressed in the OP that are one of the main obstacles of such unity. Oh and by the way, I was the "self-absorbed Ozzy" who performed such "terrible Taiji" with Page from LA at the Longmen Grottoes We actually waited respectfully for the area to become vacant before starting, though true enough crowd arrived by the time we finished (a crowd of Chinese mind you who enthusiastically applauded us by the end). Our musical accompanist was Pages friend Kim who had a Hang ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hang_(musical_instrument) ) along with him. Got some vid of it and will post it asap. <-- I have removed an inappropriate comment that I have apologized for below --> Anyway, as I said, unfortunately for some like the OP commentator, this summit, instead of creating new bridges, only served to widen the chasm between Eastern and Western Daoist scholars. Fortunately though there were those amongst our numbers, and there were many contrary to our commentator's perspective, for whom this event was a momentous occasion that formed new connections and links between all the interested parties. I know that I will continue to apply all my effort to continue the groundwork that was established at the summit.

LOL No doubt I am repeating myself here but if it isn't done in a double blind environment then it cannot be used as proof for anything other than good showmanship. Personally I could reproduce this effect with a single days preparation. Anyone ever heard of "invisible thread"? It would be a team effort. Your stooge or plant would be the chap at the other side of the table (he is cleaning up the glass or evidence right at the end). Just attach some invisible thread to the glass on a retractable reel (available through all good magic suppliers) and when your demonstrator commences her "push" (which by the way is where everyone is looking as well as the glass so any movement would be invisible) just activate the reel and "Hey Presto!" the glass falls off and smashes on the table. Am I saying this is what is going on here? No. I am just showing how easy it would be to fake it. The first rule of wizardry: "People will believe any lie. Either because they really want to or they are afraid it is true."

snap, crackle and pop! Time for Kellogs Cocoa Pops Childhood memory

I would like to pick up on a couple of these points: As I mentioned above, I believe such a correspondence course to be a preparatory service, giving participants the right preliminary foundation of theory and base-level practical application for them to then go on to "higher education," whether that be to Western academia or to traditional Taoist teachers. In essence it would be an exploration of "options" within the spectrum of Taoist ontology. Yes it would indeed explore classic literature like Laozi, Zhuangzi, the Daozang etc. thus fulfilling the role of "access to teachings." It would also explore the Raison d'etre (reason of being) of the various Taoist practices. But I also see it providing the role of providing access to teachers. Through necessity this course would have to be a consensus agreement between said teachers and so participants of the course would have the availability, once the course was completed, to then study personally with the teacher that was most appropriate.

Yes, this is also my view as well. In my presentation I gave at Luyi, Henan Province, I said, "Together we face many challenges in sharing Taoism with the world. We have to present Taoist teachings in a way that is digestible or palatable to the Western mind, and yet also in a way that truly honors and respects the Chinese roots of Taoism." I know I have personally benefited by my own research into the foundations of Taoism and see this base level understanding as essential for any Taoist seeker; many misperceptions and false turns could be avoided with this contextual understanding. So yes a theoretical component of such a course would be imperative. One of the reasons I so like the OBOD curriculum that I have provided as an appendix, and the reason I have presented it as a template to be emulated, is that they have 3 distinct stages: Bard, Ovate, Druid. Essentially these stages are: Theory, Practice, Embodiment. The challenge with this Theory Stage is for it to be a "living" process of learning rather then just dry academia. Remember that the "target market," so to speak, is the common Western person seeking an insight and an entry into Taoism. So, right from the start, they have to have something that is relevant, applicable, and beneficial to their everyday life. I wonder how this can be done.

Bump

To the OP, and reflecting some the posts, if your perception of Taiji is that it is too Yin then you have either not found a very good school or you haven't trained for long enough. Taiji balances song (looseness) and gun (tension), both must be trained. Saying that though, the initial training, well at least in my perspective, should be more song because people are conditioned to be too gun in the first place. Trying to teach intrinsic strength to a body fragmented by tensions is impossible. Also, qigong should be a perfect harmony of yin and yang.

I agree with your comments A. Many practices cannot and should not be engaged with via text alone. However, as Michael Winn mentioned in our interview, though personal contact with a teacher is best, a student can still make progress with preliminary practices via audio and video transmissions. In a very real way I view such a study course as a prepartory program which will properly prepare the participant to venture into either academic studies or come under the tutelage of a traditional master. What do you think?

Cheers for your comments Tao99. Whilst perhaps it may be true that in China's past Taoism was the philosophy of choice for "retiring gentlemen" and "socially evasive scholars," that is simply not the case in the modern Western world. For example, here on The TaoBums the average age is 25 years old ( http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?showtopic=5128 ) In the today's world of spiritual seekers people are more often looking for a supplement of wholesomeness within their modern lifestyle ... something to provide meaning, quality, and an enhancement of health and peace of mind. Is Taoism not available nor of any worth to these people? The other big question: "Is Taoism a static tradition locked to it's historical formats, or is it one that responds to the needs of contemporary society?" Any student of Taoist history will know that the later is the prevalent truth. So as society changes and chanels of communication expand and advance, so too will the manner in which Taoism is shared amongst people evolve. What will this evolving face of Taoism look like? What "format" will it take? The possibility I have presented is simply that, a possible evolution of Taoist culture as it responds to modern society. Is it a "perfect model"? Goodness no because it is limited vision of only one person. For such a service to humanity to reach maturity it would take the consensus of all the "stakeholders," i.e traditional masters, academic scholars eastern and western, as well as the common practitioner. It would be a long term process of summits similar to the recent one in Beijing, but with the primary focus on dialogue with the clear intention of arriving at said consensus. Personally, from what I experienced at the recent Beijing summit, just getting these folks in the same room engaged in prolonged dialogue without one telling the other how much more important they were would be an achievement in itself

Cheers for your comments Findley. True it is that to get a complete view of a situation we must explore and discuss all the negatives or weaknesses as counterpoint to the positives. You have effectively presented some valid considerations, which I thank you for because I tend to be a compulsive optimist. Just as an exercise though, if, hypothetically speaking of course, you yourself did actually become personally involved in such a Taoist correspondence course, exactly what would you personally like to see take place or be established for you to be 100% happy?

I would really appreciate some discussion over what I have written in the above article. Specifically: - What are the strengths and weaknesses of this proposal? - What opportunities currently exist that would help the implementation? - What challenges or obstacles would need to be navigated or overcome? - How do you think this proposal could be brought to fruition? Thank you in advance for your comments.

It could indeed be "aforementioned" Glad you liked it.

any piece of eight will buy a China mans wares haggle the price down

Back in Oz ... Clean air! Sunshine! Yay! An awesome trip all round. Will have full report with heaps of pics, vids and audio to post up (will take some time though to get it all sorted). I have been left with a definite sense of our path being blessed at every turn. Even when I got to Wudangshan and I couldn't get up the mountain due to snow I just happened to run into a Chinese-American lad, David Wei, and got to spend a whole morning at the Louxu Temple (an ancient complex in the township itself) training with his Wudang master and doing pushhands with some of the students (wait till you see the pics ). A formal report will follow once I settle in home again.

Update: Currently housed in a 5-star hotel in Zhengzhou city, capital of Henan province. The bus trip here was GRUELING indeed! An 8-9 hour road trip was stretched out to 17hrs due to traffic jams and then wrong turns and backtracking as the drivers tried to get around through the backroads (saw some damn interesting sites though on the way). We got to our hotel at 2:00am only to be met with an official welcome and a massive banquet in our honor O.o Yesturday was a big trip out to Louyi city, the heralded birthplace of Laozi. After yet another massive lunch banquet we were shuttled in to a mini-summit / conference. Noone was really prepared for this and especially we were not prepared to be asked for speakers from the international delegates. Funnily enough the organizers threw a request my way to speak for 5 or so minutes (I wonder how they got the impression that I love to talk ) So here is little ol' me who really was a "street-kid Daoist" compared to the other dignitaries sitting side-by-side with communist party members representing the Western Daoist world I took the opportunity to give a very summarized version of my paper that I wrote and told them how damn wonderful they all were for putting on the event (they kinda liked that ) Then it was off to the Laozi temple for a quick visit (many of the folks felt it was much too quick). It was really nice though with group photos and the opportunity to light incense at the official Laozi shrine and pay my benedictions. Today was off to Louyang to see the Longmen Grottoes, an incredibly impressive Buddhist sacred site where over 10 million Buddha statues of all sized from the very small (5-10cm) to the very large (4-5 stories) had been carved into the rocks along the stretch of the river. Like I said very impressive. Then to top it off Page, a lass from LA who teaches Taiji, and I did some Taiji together in front of the biggest statue (I got some vid of that so I will post it up when I get the chance). On the bus home I had the great good fortune of doing an hour long interview with Michael Winn of http://www.healingtaousa.com It was an awesome interview with some really meaty stuff being discussed. I will post it up with the raw audio (low quality as it was on my iPhone and the bus noise was distorting things a bit). Not sure what's on tomorrow but you can betcha it will be accompanied by yet another sumptuous feast (I'm gonna have to go on a diet when I get home ).

Update: Big day of lectures ... haven't got all the topics on hand sorry. Highlights though included Daoyin demonstrations, TCM exposes, Daoist priests' perspectives, plus a whole gamit of Dao and relationships, economics, and East / West issues. Off to Zhengzhou in the morning for the sacred sites tour (not sure what that will entail exactly), then off to Wudangshan Will be out of contact possibly until we get to Shang Hai. This has some 'interesting' connotations indeed. Not sure how pervasive this 'officialdom' will be within the PRC or whether it was just some passionate speaking. Quote unquote it is all a part of the "revitalisation of China". Read into that what you will. The bottom line though is that the distinct and enforced impression we got was that Daoism will be an integral element within China's participation within the global community. The general feeling of the summit is a sense of "what now?" There was talk of opening up Daoism more in an official capacity. More passionate speech? What form will this take? Mentions where made of Laozi and Daoist Culture Institutes across the world. Time will tell I guess.

Update: Very interesting day. 7:00 am start to The Great Hall of the People. If they built and decorated it to impress people they well and truly succeed because I was IMPRESSED. The opeing ceremony was eye-opening and 'interesting'. Basically the PRC has now fairly much officially endorsed Daoism as the national religion. The official presentations were a mix of Daoist priests and adherents as well as party-line professors. So it was a mix of Daoist heart with PRC rhetoric, which I have to admit I found a little jarring, but that could have just been a personal thing. The banquet that followed was a sumptuous and never-ending array of traditional delicacies with toasts all round with our Chinese table mates. Fortunately we had our new friend Jessica Sommars (Yang family student who has also trained briefly with David Verdessi). The art lining the walls in the banquet room was awesome, I will be sure to post pics when I get home. First round of seminars this afternoon were once again 'interesting'. Topics included: * Desire in the Daodejing * The Moral Fool: A Daoist Alternative to Morality * Daoist Culture and Human Civilization in the 21st Century * A Discussion of the two Qi's in the first chapter of the Daodejing (actually very interesting) * Zhuangzi's Polished Mirror * The Shamanic Influence on Early Daoism * Max Weber and Dao * Chinese Ancient Psycho-analysis (Bazi) * Daoism and Climate Change My favorites: Desire, The Moral Fool, and the Two Qi's discussions. Hopefully I will get full copies of all the papers and will make them available. Overall the sentiment is good and uplifting. I am making some excellent connections, for instance tonight I dined with Michael Winn (quite a character) and I have arranged a personal interview with Livia Kohn. I will be very interested to discern more about where the fundamental intent of the project is pointing. Stay tuned now

Writing this at the airport waiting for plane. I am off to The 1st International Summit on Laozi and Daoist Culture, November 5-7, Beijing, China. http://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=126994703211 Also will be travelling to Wudang Mountain to meet ranking members of the Daoist Association. Will be sure to give full report, pics, and vids when I get back.