Stigweard

When I was younger I "believed" in Qi. Then my perception "opened" and now Qi is my living reality.

deal another round let the cards fall where they may praying for an ace

condition of all depends on all conditions am I a buddhist??

Initially "The Five Blessings": 1. Happiness 2. Longevity 3. Wealth 4. Health, and 5. Natural Death But if I can commit myself properly (a work in progress): "The process of spiritual attainment proceeds through six phases or levels, beginning with personality refinement and conscious refinement and culminating in becoming Tao. Step One: Chi refinement and Natural Meditation as the cultivation of chi. Step Two: Teh Tao: Receiving or discovering the path and learning the Tao. Step Three: Wu Tao: Enlightened by Tao. Step Four: Ming Tao: Lucidified with Tao. Step Five: Teh Tao: Gaining Tao, and Tao also gains you. You live beyond your personal cares. Step Six: Chen Tao: Attaining Tao. Your physical presence gradually merges with the invisible reality of Tao, but you are still able to respond, if you choose, and appear in form. You have achieved spiritual immortality, not physical immortality in the ordinary sense of a life that needs to eat, sleep, and pay taxes." P65, Ni, Hua Ching, "Enrich Your Life With Virtue", Seven Star Communications, CA 1999

Perhaps it is too hasty ... but then if you want someone to do what you want them to do give them a reputation to live up to that is in tune with what you want. IMO this award will influence Obama's decision making to live up to the Nobel Peace Prize.

Faith is such an interesting word, it essentially means to "have trust". I think any spiritual tradition, whether or not it is religious, has an element of faith in it. For instance I have faith or trust that my teachers actually know what they are talking about even though I presently don't have experiential knowledge about it. Through observation, I have faith that the cycles of change will continue in their constant pattern. I have faith that my De is always guiding me, regardless of whether or not I listen, toward a path of harmonious integration. But faith doesn't necessarily mean "blind unquestioning faith". So when Laozi says, "Before Heaven and Earth were born there is something formless, complete in itself," I don't just go, "Yes that's the way it is because Laozi said so." More to the point I think, "Well now that's really interesting. I personally have never been to the 'place' before Heaven and Earth were born so I cannot say whether Laozi is right or wrong. But these sages have climbed the mountain a lot longer and a lot more successfully than I and so I will trust in their advice enough to head in the direction the suggest so that I can jolly well find out for myself. Until then I suspend final judgment, neither believing nor not believing."

You don't ask much do you The chance of "everyone" finding consensus on what anything at TTBs is like 1:10^1000000. But I do think it is a worthy task to get some "fuzzy lined" definitions going on. I am content to say that I am a "Religious Taoist" because, firstly, I don't have the negative connotations ingrained in me to the word, and secondly, because of my own definition of "religion" the tradition I follow "fits". Saying that I am admittedly closer to the fuzzy line than say Orthodox Taoism which fits closer to what GiH is describing. On that note, I do believe one can be spiritual without being religious.

Which is kinda why I am trying to establish some sort of consensus agreement of what we can call "Religious Taoism". Even on the sliding scale there are differing "extremes" of religious activities.

Interesting GIH ... by your definition of a "Religion" I would be, in each case, part of a philosophy. So we can see that the terms "Religious" or "Philosophical" Taoism is totally dependent on where you individually draw that shifting line of distinction.

I am finding this poll to be very interesting

Yeah it depends on whether you link it to: relegare "go through again, read again," from re- "again" + legere "read" (see lecture) OR religare "to bind fast" (see rely), via notion of "place an obligation on," or "bond between humans and gods."

My research, as limited as it is, arrives at the same conclusion.

I have created a poll for this topic: http://www.thetaobums.com/Is-your-Taoism-a...ion-t11882.html

Well interestingly enough if I was to follow your definitions of religion then I wouldn't be in a religion But as I always do I kinda like digging into a word to know what it really means. re⋅li⋅gion (rɪˈlɪdʒən) [ri-lij-uhn] 1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs. 2. a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects 3. the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices So my checklist for the Taoism I study: * A set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe - Yes * The creation of a superhuman agency or agencies - No not really as Tao is considered to be a process of universal manifestation ... though interaction with subtle beings is incorporated * Involving devotional and ritual observances - Yes * Containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs - Yes in that virtue is the natural result. Virtuous deeds / modes of behavior are outlined to point practitioners in a harmonious direction. * A body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices - Yes So, according to this checklist based on conventional definitions, the tradition of Tao I study is 80% a religion.

A beautifully fuzzy answer which in no way enlightens me to how you personally draw the distinction between philosophical and religious Taoism. Hehehehe! Exactly what "beliefs" would you subscribe to or what practices would you have to do to classify, in your mind, someone as being a religious Taoist?

Don't hold back on us now Mr Marblehead How does Nietzsche draw his fuzzy line?

I agree with all the above comments of how essential and beneficial ZZ is. In my intro Taiji classes I only get students to do 10mins because I also have a great emphasis on various Song exercises. At our sunrise sessions we stand for 20min but when I do my own I stand for 40min. Here is a great clip by our illustrious Lin Ai Wei: r19mSdcOaRM

Excuse the promo, but seeing I do work for Wenatex and this is a topic about mattresses: In short BLOODY AWESOME !!!

scintillating stars up above the world so bright wonder what you are

Heya GIH ... I agree with you on this. I think we have to appreciate that even within the so-designated "religious" branches of Taoism there are plural aspects. It all depends on where you draw the fuzzy line between philosophical and religious Taoism. For example, the Quanzhen school (in my experience and study), whilst falling under the religious banner, has pursuits of cultivation (see post above) as it's focus in order to achieve one's integral nature rather than the trappings of the orthodox communal Taoism. But by rights I have to accept that it does indeed still fall under the category of a religion. Personally I believe that in the West there is excessive aversion to Taoism as a religion due to our bad experiences with Western religion. Thankfully I was never brought up in a religious atmosphere so I have been able to engage the religious (read this as "spiritual cultivation") aspects of Taoism without the emotional baggage.

Essentially you are quite correct, I have taken this slant haven't I? I apologize if I have denigrated anyone's path through my comments. We have to accept that Taoism is essentially a pluralistic tradition. The religious aspects can't claim ascendancy over the philosophical and vice versa