Stigweard

Common lads I am sure we can keep this debate away from mere mud slinging.

I hope you don't think I was looking to "convert" you. What a silly proposition that would be

Yes but you do have the eternal oneness of impermanence Sorry couldn't help myself Carry on ...

Welcome to the "religious" tradition of the Quanzhen School of Taoism. The OP outlines the fundamental premise and all the associated practices are aimed at achieving this "ideal".

Firstly I will agree with you that the Philosophical branch of Taoism "can be an excellent guide for one to live their life," no question about it. I think it is fantastic that so many people have benefited by it. However the process "cleansing the philosophy of Lao Tzu and Chuang Tzu to create a philosophy that is empty of any and all religious or mythological implications" is no different from the way pharmaceutical companies will extract the active ingredient of a plant and create a patented drug. Take Aspirin for example. It originally came from the White Willow tree (Salix alba) because the bark and leaves contain Salicylic acid which of course is now the active ingredient in Aspirin. Now the pharmaceuticalists couldn't by rights call their drug "White Willow" because they recognized that that would be incorrect. So they called it Asprin because Aspro is Greek for "White." So what you and the Philosophical Taoists have done is to separate what you consider to be the best bits of the holistic tradition of Taoism, sanitize it so that it more suits your sensibilities, and yet still call it "Taoism." The thing you have to really appreciate is that the tradition of Daojiao, whilst yes regarding Laozi as a prime exemplar, included a whole spectrum of texts including but not limited to: * Shenzi / Shen Tzu 慎子 * Laozi / Lao Tzu 老子 * Zhuangzi / Chuang Tzu 莊子 * Liezi / Lieh Tzu 列子 * Wenzi / Wen Tzu 文子 * The Daozang 道藏 (Treasury of Tao) * Yijing / I Ching 易經 (Book of Changes) * Neiye / Nei Yeh 內業 (Inner Cultivation) * Huainanzi / Huai-nan Tzu 淮南子 * Huangdi Neijing 黃帝內經 (The Yellow Emperors Classic) * Tai Hsi Ching * Huahujing No one of these texts can stand alone as being "all of Taoism." They are each syncretically an aspect of the whole tradition of Taoism. In the same way, all the practices of Taoism are interdependent parts of the whole: ~ Nei Tan, Internal Medicine, which can support a person's spiritual future through refinement of the physical, mental and spiritual essence, ~ Tai Shi, Internal Breathing, which is higher than external breathing, although both are usually practiced together, ~ Tao Yin, Energy Channelling, for purposes of health and spiritual benefit, ~ Chun Shih, Visualization or concentration, ~ Fu Erh, External Nutrition, using natural herbs and other things, ~ Shing Jeau, Walking, for gathering and refining energy, ~ Fuh Chi, Internal Energy Maintenance, ~ Bei Gu, to stop eating food completely (especially helpful to those who are cultivating spiritually so that they can stop looking for and preparing food for themselves - eventually they combine their life with the environment), ~ Fu Chi, Intaking Natural Energy through breathing and swallowing, which should be practiced with Bei Gu, ~ Fang Jung, Sexual Cultivation, ~ Fu Jyeo, Secret Talismanic Characters, Words and also Invocations, ~ Jing Tan, Golden Elixir, ~ Shr Jeah, Method of Exuviation into a New Life." Whilst different schools may place more emphasis on one or two practices, they are still an intrinsic aspect of Taoism. So to disregard the spectrum of Taoist practices or to choose only one or two texts as representative of all of Taoism is like eating the leaves of the pomegranate tree and ignoring the fruit. Worse than this though, you are saying the leaf is the whole tree. <-- Edited to add practices -->

I really want to follow this through Vajrahridaya as I detect a foundation of mutuality here, but I have to go to work now. I will pick it up in the morning Nighty nights

Vajrahridaya, I suggest you print out your last post and, with it in hand, go back over every one of your posts and the responses you have received.

Dude I have never and will never make assertions that they teach the same thing, if this is the impression you have then it is you who have not understood my words. I am saying they are equal in importance. Using your own logic, if all things have the common core of impermanence through dependent origination then ultimately both Buddhism and Taoism are inherently empty and are thus equal within that emptiness. And I am happy, very happy in fact, to say that Tao is dependently originated because existence (You) and non-existence (Wu) are both aspects of Tao. This will obviously not make sense or logic to your Buddhist way of thinking but it is how Taoists regard Tao. But like you said they are different. You believe that dependent origination and impermanence are the "core" of all things, I accept and respect that. As Taoist we have a different take on that "core" and call it Tao. I am not and will not argue for Taoist superiority because superiority thinking is not the way of Tao. I have been arguing for equality and will continue to do so as long as you maintain your campaign of superiority here.

Wow ... I truly am amazed at how hypocritical you are. You have been doing nothing other than "wanting everything to be Buddhist". Truly? Can't you see what you are doing? If you truly believed and PRACTICED this then there would be nothing to argue for or against. There would be no way to establish superior or inferior. There would be nothing to transcend. I'll say it again: Just drop it Vajrahridaya, please. I really am asking you sincerely to drop it. Let go of your campaign here to establish your Buddhist superiority, because it is an ultimately pointless endeavor. If all life is empty and impermanent then so to are your opinions of superiority.

My friend it is not me who needs to make the shift. You are the one who has come to this forum to "argue the superiority of Buddhism." If you demand to be understood then you must demonstrate that you understand first. Just like we agreed to do by agreeing with: Guidelines for Taoist-Buddhist Dialog. You think you know Tao, but to even make comments like "Tao is established" shows without question that you do not. It is you my friend who are hypocritically trying to read Buddhism into Taoism. Just drop it Vajrahridaya, please. I really am asking you sincerely to drop it. Let go of your campaign here to establish your Buddhist superiority, because it is an ultimately pointless endeavor. If all life is empty and impermanent then so to are your opinions of superiority.

No my friend I am reading the words exactly as they are written. You said is impermanence is permanent and universal and that it is the shared core of all things. Unless you have a secret Buddhist New English dictionary, there is no other way to take these words other than for them to mean that impermanence is eternal and that all things are unified by impermanence. Thus, again, impermanence is the "eternal oneness" of Buddhism. Unless of course you are drifting into ambiguous mystery.

Enlighten you ??? My goodness I am having enough time of it just trying to enlighten myself! I have started a new thread here: The Relationship Between Religious and Philosophical Taoism

So who can tell me more about Sila? I would love to learn more.

*sigh* Yes please! Do you think we can?

Please don't try and shift the responsibility of this argument on to me. By your own words: You came here for an argument Vajrahridaya. And you got one.

As we have just discovered, Taoism and Buddhism both have a concept of "eternal oneness" in common. To quote yourself: "There is no other way of interpreting this". To declare a permanence of an sort is to say that it is an enduring concept that will continue and stay forever. Thus, because you are saying impermanence is without beginning or end, will last forever and will always exist then it is by definition "eternal." To say that impermanence is universal and is the "shared core" of all things is to say that it is a common attribute experienced by every infinite aspect of reality. So in essence, everything is unified by the "one core" of impermanence. In other words, everything finds oneness within impermanence. Thus impermanence is the monism (i.e. eternal oneness) of Buddhism. In Taoism it is Tao, which also incorporates the concept of change being the only universal constant, which is the eternal oneness. So we are united by the fact that we have similar, though yes with some somantic differences, concepts of eternal oneness.

Yes my friend ... which is why the Taoist instruction is not to practice virtues in isolation to each other because one of integral nature will express virtues holistically. As you have said, tolerance without the virtues of moderation or prudence can lead to "negative results.

Interesting how close this is to Taoists referring to Tao as the "Mother." And just so this reference is also figurative (which we have been trying to tell you). Interesting also that you have designated Tathagatagarbha as "permanent and universal." Seeing that universal means "ONE turning around," you have officially declared Tathagatagarbha an "eternal monism". Again it is interesting that you use the word "connected". The word actually comes from "Nexus," which means "core or center." Add the prefix of "con-" and you have the basic meaning of "sharing the same core." Hence, once again, you are establishing here that Buddhism subscribes to a monistic premise of reality. So now I am officially confused because I am quite sure these things were everything you said Buddhism was not.

Let me draw analogies, once again, with the learning of Taiji which is appropriate I believe as Taiji is a fundamental tool in helping to gain a experiential understanding of everything the sages have passed down to us. As alluded to in Laozi Ch55, a newborn babe is steeped in natural virtue and embodies perfect harmony. However, through socialization, experiential trauma, and the fixations of behavioral patterns, this virtue is distorted away from its original purity. These distortions will manifest as calcifications both in the mind and in the body. It is the over-association with or predominance of these calcifications that will designate an individual as not living in accordance with their true nature, or De. They will be neither whole nor pure because they have segmented their essential nature into the "features" of their conditioned personality. Furthermore, their vitality will be incomplete because it is through these calcified features that a] our vitality will be stagnated and "leaked" and b] misfortunes will arise as a result of inappropriate behavior. So in my learning and study, the Way of Tao is the process of "dissolving" these calcifications and reintegrating one's energy and vitality "back" into the original purity of a Laozi's newborn babe or Chuangzi's newborn calf. To link this then to Taiji - when new students enter my class they first come with all their conditioned calcifications. They are stiff both in their body and in their mind. My "job" is to help them bring themselves back together. Through practicing endless Song exercises, Zhan Zhuang, Tui shou and the form, little by little the student will start to dissolve their artificial complexes of mind and body. Eventually, after much more work plus the practice of Neidan etc, the student will bring their being back into it's original purity and thus will embody their integral nature, De, virtue.

Just bumping this up as a reminder to myself.