Stigweard

Hiya, thanks to the folks who gave the topic sincere consideration and shared their understanding. I have published my response on my site: http://www.tai-chi-wizard.com/taoism-beliefs.html

I initially posted this over in Critical Thinking and Creativity: --------------------------- This is an interesting discussion. I would like to share my thoughts mainly to flesh out my own understanding (to which I welcome comments). To me this discussion revolves around the opening concepts in Ch1 of Laozi: Critical thinking = You ming 有名 = to have name = the known Creative thinking = Wu ming 無名 = no name = the unknown I would like to use two aspects of my own training to highlight my current understanding, namely shamanic practices and taijiquan. Firstly, let us imagine You ming / the known is an island in the midst of infinite ocean of Wu ming / the unknown. The clear and defined landscape on the island of the known is everything that we can conceptual quantify and describe (hence “to have name”). Conversely the featureless expanse of the ocean of the unknown is all that which is beyond current capacity to quantify or describe (hence “no name” or “mystery”). Keeping in mind of course that this is just a model and, though it may point the mind in the direction of the truth, I acknowledge that the “truth” is infinitely more subtle than this. Now the simple reality is that our fixations to our descriptions both of our self and our world means that we are, for the most part, very much bound and confined to Critical thinking = You ming 有名 = to have name = the known ... or in the analogy above, to our island of the known. If we were completely bound to do only what is within the realm of the known then there would be no progress, no innovation, and no change in the human experience. We could only do what we have always done before. The reality shows however that humanity does make change and progress and this happens by people venturing beyond contemporary convention and into the unknown … into the mystery of potentiality. This ability to perceive new possibilities beyond what is currently known is often called creative thinking or imagination. Speaking from the point of view of Shamanic pathworking, it is the predilection of the shaman to deliberately breach the confines of the known and journey into the mysterious unknown. Here they will gain new knowledge through the direct experience of perception interacting with universal emanations that lie outside the “known” range of perception, often called “seeing” … in Daoism I have heard this referred to as the “Eye of Dao”. However, for this new knowledge to have practical worth in the world of the known it must be “translated” back into conceptual descriptives consistent with the framework of the known. At its subtle level this knowledge exists as “knowingness” and then, as it becomes more conceptualized, it becomes apparent first as a feeling, then as symbolic imagery and then as descriptive words. In other words we voyage into the unknown to gain new knowledge but we use the known as a reference point to give that knowledge practical worth in “the real world”. Referencing shamanism once again, most commonly the shaman would translate this new-found knowledge into an artistic expression like dance, song, art, chant, or even a poem. If required the shaman may further consolidate the knowledge into specific instruction. Great care must be taken here because the more this knowingness is conceptualized the further its original context may be distorted (aka “the Dao that can be named is not the eternal Dao”). Now in terms of my Taiji practice, I believe one of the deepest levels you can achieve is when you can practice free-form Taiji … but I will follow this quickly in saying that you must have a very good foundation of understanding the fundamentals. These fundamentals become the “known” that you can return to and that gives practical worth to the “unknown,” non-conceptualized free-form movement. It is my belief and understanding that Taiji movement actually arose out of the journeys into the unknown made by the ancient forefathers of Taijiquan. Their knowingness of Dao was expressed as this natural way of movement. And so the forms and principles of Taiji become our “launching pad” into the unknown, it becomes our portal to experience our own “knowingness” of Dao. And here the Taiji practitioner is given the opportunity to create their own dance and articulate their creativity into new conceptual frameworks (it is my somewhat controversial belief that the best of Taijiquan is yet to be discovered). And so “you ming 有名/the known/critical thinking” and “wu ming 無名/the unknown/creative thinking,” though they seem to be polarity aspects to each other, are in fact synergistic and codependent elements of human perception, awareness and consciousness.

Just adding some snippets of dialogue from another discussion... Zhuangzi might also help: (tian is heaven) The River Lord asked: When you say "tian" and you say "man," what do you mean? The North Sea Being said: Horses and oxen have four feet, that’s what I call "tian." Haltering a horse and piercing the nose of an ox, that’s what I call "man." I advise, don’t let man obliterate tian, don’t let intentionality (gu) obliterate destiny (ming). In other chapters there is balance: “His oneness was integrated; his not oneness was also integrated. Being One, he was a student of heaven, being Not One, he was a student of man; the person in whom neither heaven nor man defeats the other is called an authentic person.” 其一也一，其不一也一。其一與天為徒，其不一與人為徒，天與人不相勝也，是之謂真人 one of the original usages of Tian was to imply "great nature" or even "original nature". I do like how Zhuangzi uses it the crafty bugger, enjoyed rereading that. As soon as we say "this is it" we are inevitably incorrect So in this sense we can equate these phrases with each other: Being One, he was a student of heaven, = Therefore, always (ch'ang) without desire (wu-yü), In order to observe (kuan) the hidden mystery (miao); AND... being Not One, he was a student of man; = Always (ch'ang) with desire (yu-yü), In order to observe the manifestations (chiao). Pretty much has the same cadence and implication. Actually I want to just continue on this line for a moment to further etch this into my mind because it is a prescription on how to do the binary flip between conceptual and non-conceptual perception. To see the oneness (yī / tian / miao), what I call the subtle view (guān qí miào), we must abandon fixed descriptions and attachments (respectively wú míng and wú yù). However both Laozi and Zhuangzi seem to be advocating against oneness as a "fixed perception" implying that "seeing the separate things" is equally valid and important. Thus to see the many (wàn wù / bùyī ), what I call the superficial view (guān qí jiǎo), we must engage in or adhere to both descriptions and attachments (respectively yǒu míng and yǒu yù), or what Zhuanzi says "to be a student of man" (rén wèi tú). I want to do some comparative ontology here, because this binary oscillation between the known and the unknown is the essence of many traditional shamanic practices. The shaman will deliberately shut down conceptual perception or consciousness in order to "journey" to the "spirit realms" (aka the unknown, aka tian). But then on the return she must reassemble conceptual perception (aka the known) and ground out the insights gained into some form of pragmatic and useful information (done usually with dance, song, poetry or art).

LOL SB ... would you prefer "world view" or "ontology". Doesn't matter

Rainy_Day has added this elsewhere: ...the definition given in Shuowenjiezi, one of the earliest and most authoritative dictionaries in Classical Chinese, is: 祝也。女能事無形，以舞降神者也。象人兩褎舞形。與工同意。古者巫咸初作巫。凡巫之屬皆从巫。𠮎，古文巫。武扶切 A person who prays. A woman who can serve the formless, using dance to cause spirits to descend. The character shows the form of a person dancing with her two sleeves. This is synonymous with "gong" (worker).* In ancient times, Wu Xian (a person's name) is written as "Wu". Everything relating to "wu" has the radical for "wu"... *The dictionary uses this explanation, because the character "wu" contains the character "gong". But other dictionaries contradict this definition, especially by distinguishing the incantator (zhu, the person who prays) from the shaman (wu).

Hiya Elliot, This discussion would satisfy your question: http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?/topic/19627-etymology-of-wu-wei/

Event Title: Wudang Tai Chi retreat & Yangtse Cruise with Health Tai Chi & Qigong training, spiritual & Cultural visit - China Event Date and Time: 7th - 24th OCt 2012 Overview: This is an excellent opportunity to explore China on land, up the mountain and on sea. During this trip we will practise Tai Chi & Qigong on Wudang mountain, Taoist sacred mountain, legendary birthplace of Tai Chi. We will also visit the Shanxi university, one of the oldest universities in China, and exchange with students, try our Chinese language skill in a Chinese class and explore our artistic talent through a calligraphy class. Furthermore, we will visit one of the four most famous old towns in China and experience the tradition and custom of China hundreds of years ago. After the intensive programme of exchanges and cultural adventure, we will sit back and relax on board the world famous Yangtse Cruise, a great river cruise filled with stunning landscape, breathtaking views and great culture. we will even see one of the most famous dam in the world, "the Three gorges Dam". MUST BOOK BEFORE 29th FEBRUARY !!! Read more on Wudang Tai Chi Retreat

A sign of our own Stunned how a few words begot This immortal thread

Thanks matey ... it's still in its baby phase. Probably another year before it's fully fleshed out.

Is Taoism Pantheism?? This is in response to a recent question on Facebook. I was trying to keep it "short" but, as you can see, it became an impossible task. This is probably a good answer to anyone that asks "What is Taoism?" ---------- "Taoism" is pluralistic in that it is a multifaceted conglomerate of "traditions" all bound together by some common ontological threads. Throughout the history of China there has been various "cultural purges" as one ideology gained ascendancy within a dynasty and tried to eradicated competing ideologies. You had the Legalists whose "rule of law" during 200-300bc did a fair job of decimating some of the cultural heritage of the time. During the Han Dynasty they tried to resurrect knowledge of Tao by collating as many texts as they could find on the various indigenous traditions. Gathered into the imperial libraries, this collection was categorised as Daojia 道家. Please note though that this collection (though it is impossible to say "exactly") contained elements of Read more on Is Taoism Pantheism??

On January 9th, 2012 the 5 Daoist priests of Henan's White Crane Temple (嵩山白鹤观) watched as their ancient home was forcibly torn down. The land, highly prized for its excellent feng shui, was sold by the Bureau of Cultural Relics to a developer for 3,000,000 Yuan. Videos and news of the demolition is being deleted from the Chinese internet. So much for the PRC's recent support of Taoism as a cultural identity of China. Please consider helping with the following actions: 1. Call the Chiense embassies and consulates in the U.S and voice your concern (http://www.china-embassy.org/eng/) 2. Call the Chinese Daoist Association in Beijing 010-63394329 (please note the 12 hour time difference) and ask about the situation. 3. Spread the news. Read more here on Taoist Temple Forcibly Demolished, Henan Province, China

Yup I hearing you I also allow a "fuzzy" area to give space for my inspiration to explore and grow. But I still like to ground it out in practical reality which runs in accordance with my sentiments over in How to handle the unknown.

Booyah !!! There's the money shot !!! The labels Daojia, Daojiao, Daotong etc etc, whether from Buddhist, Confucian, or Taoist origin, arose through comparison as a means of self-identification. I.E. we are XYZists compared to those ABCists. Most of this label-identification arose because the indigenous traditions were being marginalized by both Confucian and Buddhist political aspirations. So in a sense the formalization of Taoism was an act of nationalism for those with vested interests in "the old ways". Interesting that Taoism suffered yet another cultural purge during the mid-20th C at the hands of the communists and now, through yet another surge of nationalism, Taoism in China is enjoying a new boost of popularity. This is occurring I believe because the PRC has recognized the vacant blandness that has engulfed their culture and also because they are reacting to the increasing social influence of both Buddhism and Christianity. So yet again we see the label Taoism being used as a means of "us" compared to "them".

??? What? Are you saying that Laozi created Dao 道 ?? Or maybe you are saying he was the first to use the term Dao 道??

LOL ChiDragon ... it is ironic that the term "not tolerable" is entering into a Taoist discussion at all wouldn't you think? From the Urban Dictionary: bullshit (commonly abbreviated as BS): A blatant lie, a flagrant untruth, an obvious falicy. The notion that "Daojiao 道教 equals the religion and Daojia 道家 equals the philosophy" is most definitely a "A blatant lie, a flagrant untruth, an obvious falicy" ... therefore my word usage, though a little coarse, is correct. Again such a classification of terms did not exist prior to the incursion of Protestant missionaries during the 19th C (these missionaries were heavily influenced by the Ming and Qing Confucian scholars). Therefore insisting on this separatist classification of Daojia/Daojiao is conforming to an external description of the tradition (meaning it is how the biased Confucians and westerners viewed Taoism and not how Taoists viewed themselves). Also to be highlighted is that this sort of "naming" and "classifying" is exactly what Laozi was warning against ... it creates too much separatism, conceptualization, and confusion. Best just to let it go and adopt a more holistic view. Always central to the discussion is Dao 道 ... Is Dao a philosophical concept? Is Dao a mystical phenomena? It is the human endeavour to comprehend and find union with the subtle mystery of universal life that gives rise to all the philosophical tenets found in the ancient texts. It is also the exact same endeavour that gives rise to all the mystical practices found amongst the differing Taoist traditions. So regardless of how you see it and regardless of your approach of inclination, there is only Dao and your human endeavour to discover union with the subtle universal essence. The rest is just the dust that gets in your eyes.

Hey Chi Dragon ... enough of the silliness with splitting Daojiao 道教 and Daojia 道家. This is a modern fabrication that has ironically arisen from Western Protestant study of Chinese culture in the 19th C. It is pure and simple BS. Daojiao was used in the Mozi to designate Confucian thought as early as the Warring States (402-221 BCE). It was then used by Buddhists to refer to their tradition. It was only in the 5th or 6th century that the formalization of the disparate traditions of Chinese indigenous culture began using the term to denote an unique religious identity. And even then the term Daojiao and Daojia was used interchangeably. Sometimes Daojia was used to reference the texts of the tradition, sometimes to refer to the community that practised the texts. There is absolutely no way for anyone to make a clear designation of: Daojiao 道教 equals the religion and Daojia 道家 equals the philosophy. So please, please, please ... enough! It then follows that Taoism is the holistic spectrum of Chinese indigenous ontology that INCLUDES the philosophy, the rituals, the gods and goddesses, the practices, the texts, the sages ... EVERYTHING !!! Yet at it's heart and soul, it is as Steve says: "Daoism, for me, is about becoming an authentic human being."

LOL correct me if I am wrong ... but hello Drew Hempel Yes? No?

Yes, and I would add ... see an acupuncturist who knows medical qigong. Next question: have you asked your qigong teacher about this? Or have you been messing around with your qi without either supervision or without correct instruction?

Event Title: Stillness Movement & Gift of the Tao Neigong with Medical Qigong & Taoist Medicine Clinical Applications Event Date and Time: January 21-24, 2012 Overview: Join us January 21, 22 to learn the internal Neigong system of Stillness-Movement along with the Shamanic Shifting Neigong techniques of Gift of the Tao movements. In the optional clinical applications days January 23, 24 learn Qi projection techniques (wai qi liao fa) and Chinese Taoist Medicine therapeutic techniques for healing others. Read more on Stillness Movement & Gift of the Tao Neigong with Medical Qigong & Taoist Medicine Clinical Applications

LOL yup, that was my good friend Jessica Summers. That conference was a "interesting" to say the least. Yes it was great to have Taoist put centre stage, yes it was awesome to have such a congregation of leading Taoist scholars and practitioners. But it almost seems that it has become the patriotic duty of mainland Chinese to be prejudice against all Westerners; it was probably the most pronounced experience of racism I have encountered. There was a distinct element of the "Whites" being shunned, segregated, and not-so-privately belittled. There was also a margin of truth in that our participation there was more about legitimising the event and showing that the west is coming to sit at the feet of the "superior" Chinese. The malcontent chappy who dropped in here to dump his bile was a perfect example of how they were regarding us beyond the feigned politeness in the public eye. Of course it wasn't all like that, there were some of the Taoist teachers who were truly living their De and were welcoming and accommodating to all in attendance; they were truly wanting to be of service and transmit the Taoist culture. But there was enough "party" overtones and blatant prejudice to sour the brew. In terms of Laozi, the fervent assertion was that Laozi was not just a living person, he is a god ... period. And yes to even question that notion would bring the immortals of Huashan descending upon your ignorant head LOL

Hmmm ... my favorite teachers? 1. My stupidity and ignorance ... for they create all the challenges that force me to grow 2. The people that hurt and harm me ... for they teach me to be self-reliant 3. The pains and discomforts of my body ... for they teach me how to better care for myself 4. The circle of life and death ... for they give me this classroom in which to learn 5. My inner spark of divinity ... because it ever calls to me to become complete