Stigweard

"The process of spiritual attainment proceeds through six phases or levels, beginning with personality refinement and conscious refinement and culminating in becoming Tao. Step One: Chi refinement and Natural Meditation as the cultivation of chi. Step Two: Teh Tao: Receiving or discovering the path and learning the Tao. Step Three: Wu Tao: Enlightened by Tao. Step Four: Ming Tao: Lucidified with Tao. Step Five: Teh Tao: Gaining Tao, and Tao also gains you. You live beyond your personal cares. Step Six: Chen Tao: Attaining Tao. Your physical presence gradually merges with the invisible reality of Tao, but you are still able to respond, if you choose, and appear in form. You have achieved spiritual immortality, not physical immortality in the ordinary sense of a life that needs to eat, sleep, and pay taxes." P65, Ni, Hua Ching, "Enrich Your Life With Virtue", Seven Star Communications, CA 1999 I am content to agree with you that your Buddhism is different from Taoist ontology. I fully understand and appreciate your view of dependent origination and that all things are 'empty' because they do not have a source and arise due to an endless chain of causation. I am grateful to have learned this facet of Buddhism from you. Have you convinced me that the Buddhist concept of dependent origination trumps the Taoist "Way". No. Have you demonstrated through your own actions and your manner (i.e. your Virtue) that the Buddhist way creates a superior being? No. Your actions speak for themselves my friend

Double post

I appreciate what you are saying however I must maintain that it is incredibly important. And even in the use that you are using it still is not accurate of how Taoists regard Tao. So it is my strong suggestion that this term is no longer used due to it's inherent inaccuracy in this circumstance.

Once again... Both the word "real" and "reify" comes from the Latin res "matter, thing". "Because Tao is regarded as both material and immaterial, Beingness and Nothingness simultaneously, this term is henceforth irrelevant to this discussion". Synonymously, Tao is both "is" and "is not" but we realize that these terms are constructs of conceptualization and thus are still not the Tao. Thus, once and for all, Taoists do not reify Tao. I shan't repeat myself again on this topic. I have made my point clear and avoidance of this shows attachment to your point of view. You are far too predictable. Find a better English word than because the word you are using is incorrect and if you are going to pass judgments on Taoism then you best make sure you get your facts right. At the moment you are saying that your Buddhism trumps our Tao and yet you still haven't clearly understood what Tao represents within Taoist ontology. This clear lack of understanding on your behalf therefore disqualifies you to pass such a judgment. I refer you once again to this post: http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?s=&amp...st&p=136772

I'm glad to hear that ... then perhaps you should meditate on the apparent lack of harmony, peace, simplicity and quietude present in your relationships with several members on this forum. No, reify literally means "to convert into or regard as a concrete thing" http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/reification http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/reify http://www.thefreedictionary.com/reify ... and it comes from the Latin res "matter, thing". http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search...searchmode=none And so, to repeat myself once again, "because Tao is regarded as both material and immaterial, Beingness and Nothingness simultaneously, this term is henceforth irrelevant to this discussion".

Not obtuse at all my friend, I found it very helpful actually So useful that I shall requote it because I believe that this is an important line of inquiry: How does this fit with our Buddhist friends?

Hiya Zhuo Ming-Dao, were you deliberately para-phrasing the Daodejing here or is what you said a part of Buddhist teachings?

Pardon me for requoting myself: To say my Tao is better or superior than someone else's Tao or Dharma is to make distinct and give description to my Tao and therefore it is no longer the universal Tao. In Taijiquan I defeat my opponent when he tenses and becomes overly defensive. By forcing him to become distinct and apparent he submits to my will and I can do with him as I please. Only by being subtle, indistinct, intimately receptive to change and impartial to outcomes can I remain ungraspable and unbeatable. I am happy to have my Tao being seen as gutter trash for then I avoid the unnecessary competition and tension that destroys our integral nature.

In my view Taoism is about integration, it is a path of fusion of disparity and polarity. In this manner I am very much inclined toward Master Hua-Ching Ni in referring to Taoism as the "Integral Way" or "The Path of Subtle Integration". As such I am always allowing myself to be mindful of the interdependence and oneness inherent within all people and their beliefs. Sometimes though clarity is to be found through contrast. Sometimes we can only discover what we truly want by experiencing those things we don't want. Sometimes that different view point can help illuminate our own path. And this is how we travel until we learn the wisdom that the pairs of opposites ... favor and disgrace, joy and suffering, right and wrong, better and worse, superior and inferior ... are equal expressions of the one universal nature and that it is only the conceptual deviations of our own conditioned mind that gives them distinctions of preference. I think it is great Vajrahridaya that you are here amongst us, sharing the convictions of your own views, study and practice. You stir the pot with your resolute assertions which is fine because without movement and change life would stagnate and I am sure you would agree that Tao/Dharma is ever in flux whilst also inherently having universal constancy. And yet the human sphere is one of the great environments in our lives and if we are to discover harmony, peace, and productivity within our relationships we must discover the Tao within our interactions with others. It is here that virtue is the pivotal practice in Taoism and in regard to virtue we have the elucidation of Laozi when he says: 我有三寶持而保之 一曰慈 二曰儉 三曰不敢為天下先 There are three treasures which I embrace and follow closely: the first is to be kind; the second is to be simple; the third is to not put one's own importance first in the world. To be kind, compassionate and frugal in our words with each other and to embrace one another's interdependent importance and value is the path of interpersonal Tao and is the way through which we will truly be of mutual benefit. Blessings

I sense a lawsuit A new haiku milestone Fifteen hundred posts!!!

Regardless of whether 'abilities' can or cannot be attained without virtue the central framework of this forum (well at least I think so) is to help us develop further in the way of Tao. Within that framework then my view is that the cultivation of virtue is in fact the pivotal and most essential practice that the aspirant can engage in.

Question to the panel: What practical things can we do to facilitate interfaith harmony? How would you have answered?

I have just come back from being the MC for the Multi-faith Thanksgiving Celebration as part of Queensland's 150th birthday celebrations. Once again it was wonderful to see all the different faiths and religions getting together to celebrate what they had in common and appreciate the collective diversity. It made me reflect on the interfaith tribulations we have been having here lately. Here are what I believe are the highlights of this thread: --------------------- To facilitate interfaith harmony, we have to first ensure that there is mutual respect between the faiths. Without this, there can be no harmony. --- I would have people of other faiths get together and meet each other. It seems a lot of disharmony is based on ignorance. Once people come to understand that most people are "good" people, regardless of racial, ethnic, religious differences, then the walls just melt away. --- I don't think the goal is interfaith harmony. I think the goal is finding the truth underlying different faiths. Although doing that, might also accomplish the former as a side effect... --- It must be kept in mind though that one of the root causes of conflict of any type is when people try and prove each other wrong. --- However progress toward the ideal will not occur whilst the finger-pointing of 'you are wrong' endures. These rifts will not heal whilst we stand on one side of the chasm and criticize the actions of those on 'the other side'. The truth is we are all one humanity and each and every one of us is responsible in some way for the current state of affairs. --- When you are standing on the front line of creating fundamental social change, when you are standing shoulder to shoulder with parties that have rankled with mutual animosity for centuries then the absolute worst thing you can possibly do is to openly challenge them by even insinuating that they are "wrong". Even if they are absolutely, without a shadow of a doubt wrong, if your intent is to further the cause of harmony, then you cannot ... cannot ... create the polarity of making any declarations of who is right and wrong. Now imagine those very same parties sitting around the same table opening engaging in dialogue, examining the core issues that have caused ill will between them and exploring concrete strategies to co-create an ever progressive interfaith harmony. And then, after 4 days of intensive dialogue, them all making a solemn commitment to the implementation of those strategies. And why have they been able to do this? Because we were able to engage each other with mutual respect, because we adopted the attitude of 'we are all in this together', because we were able to say to one another, "Your faith, your doctrine, your belief is worthy of respect and appreciation." --- Why can't we all see the same thingg????!!!! Waahhhh!!!! laugh.gif rolleyes.gif huh.gif --- All beliefs will ultimately be transcended by personal experience. Talk of "I believe this" or "I believe that" is all just that....talk. These "beliefs" eveyone is spouting off about here, are just ideas you have yet to have personal experience with. I suggest spending more time in silent awareness and less time talking about theory. --- Would you rather be right or would you rather be free? I'll admit I am wrong a lot of the time, and don't know everything. It's incredibly freeing to do this because I am able to find real Truth this way. I don't have to continually asert that I am right and you are all wrong and am able learn from everyone. --- As Taoists (or whatever we each choose to call ourselves) we have an opportunity to work to on harmony and the balance and reconciliation of 'opposites', like yin and yang perhaps. --- We could facilitate interfaith harmony by defining those things/ideas which we hold in common. I realize this seems very liberal and wishy-washy but I am simply trying to answer the question. --- Anyhow, back on topic - imagine Buddha, Fu Xi, Laozi, Jesus, Mohammed, etc all sat down together at a bar... What would they say to each other? What would they agree or disagree on? What would they agree on? My answer: That VIRTUE is the fundamental building block and primary goal of all spiritual endeavours.

You will pretty much get my views on virtue in these topics: The Significance of Taoist Virtue Virtue is... I'll add that, in my view, virtue is the most essential practice in Taoist training and yet it is so overlooked by modern practitioners. In short Daojiao 道教 is principally about the reestablishment of one's integral nature and the natural, spontaneous emanation of such a wholesome being can be described as virtue or De 德. Every practice and effort is intended toward this goal.

Let's not get distracted now This here is our point of agreement: Let us rejoice in the concordance and union of views. No more needs to be said I feel. And if you are leaving let us share tea before you go...

illegible truths buried amidst dusty tomes lost in the index

dog eared and yellow shelved as wasted liturgy bookmarks forgotten

pact of the pages we shall not be overturned nor covered over

PM Sean ... http://www.thetaobums.com/sean-m3.html He is awol most of the time so exercise patience