Tibetan_Ice

Thus spake Icarus.

Ramana said not to be concerned with reincarnation and that seems to be the party line you are towing here. Buddhists refer to the alaya, which continues from one life to the next. It is obvious that you have not examined this topic closely.

You don't have a clue, do you? Emotional bliss is an emotion. It is an obscuration, like thought. I wouldn't even call it bliss in the non dual sense. Imagine you are a jawbreaker. At the center of the jawbreaker lies a state of ultimate bliss and clarity and a spot where reality wraps back around and encompasses all. A kind of portal or doorway to ALL. When it opens, golden light subtly appears. You can't see the portal because there are these layers wrapped around the center of the jawbreaker preventing you from accessing the center. So you start to lick the jawbreaker. You practice various methods, like shamatha, vispassana, Bodhicitta, ethics, single pointed concentration, awareness of awareness, seeking the self, kundalini yoga, raja yoga, turning the attention around to the self, observing the mind, dream yoga, etc etc. Sometimes you break through and get a glimpse of the bliss and clarity at the center of the jawbreaker. You become everything, the trees, the grass, other people... There is great love, silence and a peculiar water-like luminescent quality to everything. Then it goes away and you resume your "normal state". When you practice single pointed concentration correctly, you succeed in punching a little hole through the layers of the jawbreaker and you get a glimpse, a taste. But it doesn't last long because you are still licking the jawbreaker and the sauce fills the hole back up. So, you keep at it. You keep doing practices. You augment your understanding by reading books. You test various hypotheses and record their effects. You study the known greats like Buddha, Ramana, Jesus, and try to understand what they have said. Gradually, like water dripping in a rock, you wear away more and more layers of he jawbreaker, getting closer to the center. You have more mind blowing experiences which confirm that you are on the right path. But you don't settle for the experiences because they are just signs along the way. You want to reach the center, to taste the clarity, bliss, love, truth of existence. If you hold one form in your mind, one thought or visualization, one object or point of attention and try to maintain that one point you will eventually succeed in attaining one-pointed concentration. What happens is that there are signs which present themselves along the way up to the point where you succeed. At first, there are many distractions. Thoughts and emotions arise. Sensations, itches or pain in the body. Distractions. But you keep focusing on your object. You practice over and over again. You learn that there is tendency in the mind to start something up and then release it. The release distracts you and you are no longer focused on the object of attention. Then you learn that you must direct your attention and then sustain your attention. You develope or recognize another component of attention that monitors whether or not the attention is on the object of meditation or not. You try very hard and keep at it. One day you succeed in holding your attention on the object for one minute without interruption. You notice that the periphery or background surrounding the object gets brighter, like someone turned on a light. The noticing of the brightness distracts and you lose the stream of attention. So, you try again, and again and again. Then you get to the point where the background brightens up but you maintain your stream of attention on the object. Then, the object starts to brighten up. You can see more detail. You become very interested and notice that your mental vision of the object is like brilliant clear high res definition. It distracts you and you lose it. So you try again. Eventually, you get to the point where the background brightens up, the object of concentration becomes brilliant (a mental representation in the mind and then you experience bliss, better than any orgasm you've ever experienced. You merge into the object and then bounce back out to your normal state. You get up from your meditation and you wonder what that was. You notice that everything is shiny and beautiful. You could stare at the colors in the rug forever. The effect lasts for a few hours and then dissipates. That was samadhi. When you are in it, the senses have shut off. You cannot feel your body. You are no longer aware of any distracting thoughts or emotions. The obscurations are being held at bay. It is only temporary, but it gives you an idea what the center of the jawbreaker might be like. So, you keep at, slowly melting each layer of the jawbreaker and then maybe one day... Karl, in your case, you should quit clenching the jawbreaker in your hand, put it in your mouth and start sucking on it. You won't be able to talk while you are sucking away, but then, that might be a good thing.

Karl, are you saying that there is no reincarnation? That there are no other planes, buddhafields, heaven/hell? That when Buddha declared that he had finally broken out of the endless samsaric cycle of birth and death that he was wrong? Don't you know that nirvikalpa samadhi is a form of death and if you stay away too long you can't come back to your body?

Karl, you are trying to drag a nonduality experience back into duality and then label the experience. The fact is that when Manitou experienced the golden tunnel, there was no identity, but upon return from the experience, the normal personal identity resumes and then interprets and overlays its concepts over top of the experience. Your statement that if there was no identity that there would be nothing at all is false. If Manitou had remained at the source and never returned, dissolving her body and mind into light she would have lost her personal identity, but would have become all identities including those beyond space and time.

You are absolutely right. You do not have the same grammar as me, or most of the people on this forum. Without first establishing grammar, there is no way to apply trivium. And how do you establish grammar except through common experiences which are then labeled. But you don't seem to have the common experiences, so I guess this is just a waste of time. All the best.

Ok. You said: How could some like you, who claims to have meditated for eight years not have experienced any bliss? How could you "become" Ramana and not experience any bliss? Ramana is so full of bliss that there is no way an authentic experience of meeting Ramana could not produce the experience of bliss. And, Jesus emanates so much love and bliss that it is very hard to miss it. I can't help but think that you just play with your powers of visualization and imagination and fooled yourself into thinking that it was an authentic spiritual experience. Samadhi is bliss. There are many kinds of samadhi hence many kinds of bliss. Even the jhanas have a pronounced level of bliss that you have to get through. You have said that you would pick trivium over meditation. I can see why. You have missed an essential ingredient of spiritual development. The natural state is blissful. Primordial consciousness is blissful. Ajahn Brahm describes the jhanas as "better than sex". I concur. Perhaps you could make an effort and practice a proper technique in order to attain samadhi just once. It would help you realize something.

Well, that explains it Karl.

Go and try what exactly? Make up some grammar, overlay reality with the symbols, make up some rules, convince yourself if you follow the rules you will arrive at some form of truth? You don't even know what reality is, how can you establish a grammar? Well you can, but it is a conceptual invention. From the wiki "trivium" It is an art, not even a science. Perhaps you could tell us about some of your millions of insights in a way that proves that they are just not imagination.

Trivium is the great destroyer of mysticism, isn't it? Trivium can't explain rainbow body. It can't explain footprints in stone, past lives... It is like a game of chess. It has its own rules and playing field and when you drop a potato on the board, it simply dismisses it as not part of the game. What a waste of time!

You will never know what it is like to be pregnant. My world revolves around experiences. I look to the texts for possible explanations of those experiences. The world of thinking and thought is a small part of the whole. A very small part. You do not see that presenting Bill Jilson as a seasoned meditator, who teaches/taught is a form of being enamored by titles. You said "The writer-Bill Joslin- has been meditating for over 19 years plus many more esoteric practices and has been a teacher for several years.". You say one thing and behave the opposite. You are not in a position to evaluate his experiences or accomplishments (or lack of) therefore you rely on his personal history and presentation (title) in order to ascertain his authority. The problem with using a candle to illuminate the darkness is if you blow too hard, the flame goes out.

What it feels like to be pregnant is a part of being pregnant. You settle for conceptual induction when in fact you don't have the whole picture. The experience gives the whole picture. The first thing the taught us in university philosophy is that just because someone has a title does not mean that they speak the truth. You seem to be enamored by titles and certificates. Case in point. Yogani has been at it for over 40 years and look at the crap he has come up with. Joselin and Yogani are in the same league.

Well what a load of crap. A man will never know what it feels like to be pregnant because he can never have the experience. Only those whom have had the experience have the right to present their observations as knowledge. If one wants to accept the observations from someone whom has never had the experience, then they are a fool. Knowing about some thing is not the same as experiencing it. Knowing about something is just a borrowed belief.

Does Bill Joslin have practical experience in nirvikalpa samadhi? I don't think so. From Merging With Shiva... http://www.himalayanacademy.com/view/merging-with-siva

I believe it is "you can check out any time you like but you can never leave". followed by a searing lead probably on a Les Paul

It really bothers me when someone uses a vague term like "meditation". There are so many kinds of meditation. TM, DM, Anapannasati, breath meditation, body scanning, vispassana, inner smile, stillness meditation, loving kindness etc etc etc. and within each of the many categories, there are variations like focusing on the nostrils, or the lower abdomen, or the chest, or the place you know the breath etc etc etc. To neglect to clarify specifically which meditation you are referring to is a travesty. You are lumping all into one category. Further, if you were to name specific meditations, how do you know you were performing the "meditation" correctly? TM is known to produce psychosis in some cases after extended practice. DM is a form of TM. So, what are you calling meditation?

You missed it again.When you shine the light of consciousness on the unconscious or subconscious it becomes conscious or conceptual. It is not that for that is still mind. You are talking about divisions in consciousness. I am talking about something beyond.

You are obviously not familiar with knowing without conceptualizing. It is beyond the mind. It is what samadhi is about. It is what spiritualism is about. Beyond ideas and thoughts. Your problem is that you think logic and reason are the centre of the universe when in fact they are but an insignificant part of your makeup. What do you think ultimate boddhicitta is?

You just ask your heart. No reason or conceptualization needed. Simple.

You know, I could not find any source that says that nettles in large quantities acts as an entheogen. I did however find many sources saying that it is more like a "medicine" because of its high mineral content and diuretic properties. I sort of resent the idea that you present, that Milarepa used nettles as a way to gain enlightenment. Milarepa worked very hard for his enlightenment and he was no drug addict. http://www.thranguhk.org/buddhism/en_milarepa.html Buddhism does not teach the use of entheogens as a crutch. Did you spend years starving, eating only nettles? Did you do all the hard work that Milarepa did and have such a master as a guru, Marpa?

CT, in that last quote, this part could be clearer: Isn't the king of meditation "non meditation"? From "The Clear Light of Awareness Instructions in Mahamudra" by Khyungpo Naljor: So it would seem to be counterintuitive to be referring to the realization of primordial wisdom in the same subsection that speaks of mantras, chants, visualization... Let alone present the idea that primordial wisdom cane be "invoked". Again, from Tilopa's Mahamudra Upasesha: And again, this concept is much clearer in the Nang-Jang: So, while I don't disagree with what you've quoted, I think it blurs the idea of non-meditation into something that can be practiced through mantra or guru yoga. It could have been clearer.

I have never called my experience of luminous water "boring". I will re read Dawg's thread to see what you are referring to. I see you performed an gigantic quote yourself, about Ramana. Good for you! Perhaps you are getting over your aversion and grasping on a small scale. The next step is to learn about quote delimiters so that the quote looks like a quote. Also, you should include a link or reference to the source of the quote, It is interesting that you think Adyashanti is awake, or enlightened, or that having the same experience is some form of accomplishment. After reading about his "awakening experience" in one of his books I concluded that he was mistaken because I myself have had that experience many times and I cannot walk through walls, heal the sick or leave my handprints in stone, like the authentic Buddhist masters. I think what happens in the west is that some people realize son clear light and think they've arrived not realizing that they still have to go beyond to reach mother clear light. They quit too soon and rob themselves, and then deceive others... I wish you no ill intent or harm. I hope you do accomplish enlightenment. And then I hope you come back for the rest of us like Ramana and Jesus are doing.

Let me ask you this. If you had vainquished the 10 fetters and were capable of the jhana of infinite consciousness (which you would be), knew all your inumerable past lives, could see through the eyes of any sentient being, could go anywhere, become anything, what interest would physically going to 'Burning Man' provide? You could blink an eye and in that split second, taste all the Burning Man's that ever occured, past present and future. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracles_of_Gautama_Buddha https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iddhi

Spotless, You may think that you've awakened, or become enlightened in your definition of the matter but I see things differently. For one, recently you wrote that you put me on "ignore". However, I see that you've replied to my post. Were you lying? Further, your assessment that I became bored with my "once" taste of the bliss state is totally inaccurate. Had your assessment been even partially true it might have proven some iota of psychic ability, particularly the one of "knowing the minds of others". But in your case, you have failed. Then you go on to insult me by saying that I see but see not..etc. This a form of malicious intent. So, just in your one post, you have further reinforced my belief that you are in no where near any form of awakening or enlightenment, as an enlightened being possesses certain characteristics; they have overcome the ten fetters and do not demonstrate the type of behavior that you demonstrate. An arahant, having conquered craving, does not go to "burning man" parties, nor does he/she perform forms of asceticism such as fasting. Nor does an arahant lie, mistakenly read the minds of others nor insult or misrepresent the accomplishments of others. According to Buddha's Buddhism, these are the fetters which must be overcome in order to reach the various stages of enlightenment. I just don't see you demonstrating any... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_stages_of_enlightenment A Stream-enterer (Sotapanna) is free from: 1. Identity view 2. Attachment to rites and rituals 3. Doubt about the teachings A Once-returner (Sakadagami) has greatly attenuated: 4. Sensual desire 5. Ill will A Non-returner (Anāgāmi) is free from: 4. Sensual desire 5. Ill will An Arahant is free from all of the five lower fetters and the five higher fetters, which are: 6. Craving for fine material existence 7. Craving for existence on the level of formlessness 8. Conceit 9. Restlessness 10. Ignorance Here is a link which further explains the ten fetters: http://www.westernbuddhistreview.com/vol5/stages-of-the-path.pdf You probably won't read the whole text because you are more interested in writing than you are in reading (learning), but you can assess your own level of accomplishment based on these levels and see if you even qualify as a stream enterer. (No identity, no ego) Yes, there is a great chasm between the modern western "awake" crowd's definition of awakening and the classical eastern definition of enlightenment. You are free to choose whichever one you wish. For me, your behavior and writings tell us all which definition you have chosen.