Tibetan_Ice

Hi Dawg. Thank you very much for explaining that. I'm trying to understand the point of view. I have found an interesting video, perhaps one of the most profound and revealing videos I have seen in a long time. Not only does it caution about attachment to visions, but perhaps it explains the true definition of the Middle Way. I hope you don't mind me posting it here...

A couple days ago Gatito decided to clean a thread that I had posted in. Instead of moving my comments to the pit, he moved the entire thread to Steve's personal practice sub forum and deleted most of my posts which he deemed offensive, along with his self incriminating post of calling me a hypocrite. The topic is The Instructions of the Six Lamps. Further, previous to this, he PM'd me to call me a hypocrite, which he also affirmed in that sameness thread. I have a snapshot of his post which I can include. Then, when I removed my posts from that same thread, which were not breaking any forum rules, Gatito "liked" every removal. This is not only a form of harassment but it is a form of abuse of power by a moderator.

Hi Dawg, You said: Are you aware of the Theravada tradition, with the jhanas where you ignore the nimittas up to a point. That point is where you have a bright shiny nimitta that looks like a sun or a moon. Then you are supposed to shift your attention to that nimitta and concentrate on that. That then propels you into one of the jhanas. Refer: Ajahn Brahm, many writings including "Mindfulness, Bliss and Beyond" Are you following a tradition or are you saying that it doesn't work like that?

Are thogal visions also known as nimittas? It appears to be the case. The implications are very interesting. That would mean the Theravada's breath meditation and Dzogchen thogal are very similar. I know there will be vehement denial of this proposition, but look at the facts.. Here is a description of some thogal visions That is from the book called NAKED AWARENESS Practical Instructions on The Union of Mahamudra and Dzogchen by Karma Chagme with commentary by Gyatrul Rinpoche Translated by B. Alan Wallace Now take a look at the description of nimittas by Ajahn Brahm in his book called Mindfulness, Bliss and Beyond: The other thing that made me think that nimittas are thogal visions relates to that last bit about the beautiful colors. According to the second thogal vision, you find beautiful colors. According to Jean Luc Archard, these are the characteristics of the thogal second vision: As I persist in a combination of Buddho breath mantra repetition and gazing (I've combined the two) I am seeing the most beautiful colors, shapes and multicolored lights imaginable. Made me wonder... We all have the same human makeup, don't we? Up until this point, for most meditations, I would usually see a very bright pulsing light which habitually appeared about 45 minutes into the meditation. The light would appear for a few seconds and then be gone. It was only since I started to practice the Buddho mantra, matching the breath with Bu ddho, that the colors and lights started appearing sooner, lasting longer and have become spectacular. Further, I can precipitate the bright lights by upping my concentration and focusing on a single point with my gaze during the meditations. It seems that the missing ingredient is fixing the gaze, combining the gaze with the Buddho mantra meditation. Maybe Dzogchen thogal and Theravada jhanas are tapping into the same phenomenon.!!! Interesting proposition isn't it?

Here is an excellent meditation that was created by a member in this forum. It is wonderful that people with high realizations do frequent this site from time to time...

Comments?

Hi Dawg. I have two questions, or topics. The first one is about the voice in the mind. Here is the analogy. There is a speaker and a microphone in the head (mind). It is what creates the sound of "talking" or non vocalized mind chatter. I'm trying to figure out, within the context of your model, if the conscious mind controls the microphone, or if the subconscious mind does. Or, perhaps they both share it? Would you say that the subconscious mind has the microphone most of the time and through it it speaks to the conscious mind? Would it also be fair to say that the conscious mind also grabs the microphone to talk to the subconscious mind? It appears that way to me. Yesterday, I grabbed the mike, and looked directly at the other part of the mind that was talking and asked it who it was. The voice went totally silent. First time in a long time, it had nothing to say. It almost seemed like it had been hurt or that someone had told it to shut up. In this analogy, then, wouldn't mantra repetition be the case where you are trying to take the mike back from the subconscious? The second topic I would like your opinion on is this... There is a center of awareness in the middle of the head in the mind that flits about, moving from one thought, sensation, sound or stimulus to another as they occur. It is like a limp finger that points to the various stimuli, somewhat like a periscope from the heart (I've traced it back to the heart). Typically this periscope is hard to control and jumps around to the next most exciting stimuli willy nilly. Would you say that this periscope is controlled by the subconscious mind, or at least that the subconscious mind uses it to look around? Is not the point of breath meditation to learn to gain control of his periscope and keep it focused or controlled by the conscious mind? It certainly seems like that is the whole point that you are talking about. I, meaning the conscious mind, can direct the periscope to remain aware of a whole cycle of the breath, of knowing the breath, but it never stays put. With meditative practice I've managed to get to the point where I can keep the periscope focused for tens of minutes at a time and see nimittas and enter a few jhanas. Would you say that this whole practice is the training of the subconscious mind, by the conscious mind? It is like the conscious mind is not in control, and the task is to take control back. I can envision that if the conscious mind had perfect control over the subconscious, then in a sense the conscious mind would be controlling the giant that you speak of. Is the whole point to use the conscious mind to gain single pointedness in order to penetrate and shatter the delusion that has settled into the subconscious mind? I think I am on the right track, trying to map your explanations to my understanding and experiences. Would you agree?

Hi Dawg, Thank you for the story about concentration. I've had that experience of post meditation glitter and silence quite a few times. I didn't think it was possible or a goal to stay in that state permanently. Ajahn Brahm talks about exactly that experience too in his book called Mindfulness, Bliss and Beyond. Actually, those experiences were a precursor for the experiences of an immense pool of silence, bliss, love and the feeling of "being everything" which came out of my heart through the eyes. Perhaps I will go back to single pointed concentration instead of focusing on the kati channel and the visions, however spectacular they may be. I really appreciate your taking the time to share your personal experiences with everyone. It means allot to me as I'm sure it does to most others here.

Did it appear like slices of video with lots of brilliant white light in between the frames? Like reality is a series of 3d pictures and if you grasp at one of them you are in that one? And that if you stay out of the picture slice, you could use the white light to present a whole different picture or " location" to go to? Like there is no time or space in the white light, but there is time and space in each picture slice?

What exactly are you saying here? Are you saying that unless you have a transmission, sactioned by a Buddhist Lama, you will not reach the natural state? Are you saying that I have no understanding or experience of the natural state? Are you saying that when Tenzin Wangyal, Karma Shagme, Alan Wallace etc use the approach of performing practices to enter the natural state and then after realizing that state, have a knowledgeable teacher confirm it, that they are all wrong? Are you saying that it is possible, through visualization/imagination to create all the experiences, but none of those experiences are real or valid because they are of the mind? Are you saying the natural state and the mind are two separate things? Are you saying that the pure crystal Kati channel, that which has no blockages and goes directly to the source in the heart can be construed by the conceptual mind? The whole point of developing the crystal Kati channel is that it is the one source from which visions arise, which are not constructed by the imagination or conceptual mind. Are you saying that breath meditation does not eventually put you in the natural state? What exactly are you saying here?

Where to begin? You don't seem to be talking the same language that I am familiar with or the language of the books that I have read. Resting the in the natural state is not Thogal, although resting in the natural state is the first step. Thogal is a gazing practice in the sense that, whether or not your eyes are open or closed, you continue to direct attention into the visual field (the eyes). There are three 'gazing' directions in Thogal, up, straight ahead and down. The up gives you the dharmakaya, the straight ahead give you the sambogakaya, and the down gives you the nirmanikaya. There are also three postures in Thogal, which all increase the pressure in the lower body, permitting the Bodhicitta to pressurize and move up into the eyes. First off, "resting in the nature of mind" is "resting in the natural state". This is not Thogal. Further, according to Jean -Luc Archard, it is not "resting in the natural state".. You mention the second vision.. In my current experiences of 'gazing' with eyes closed while maintaining fresh attention in the eye consciousness, I am now seeing beautiful colors and displays that I haven't seen before. I did find this little bit about it today.. Have you completed all four visions? What was your experience in the fourth vision?

He shouldn't be sitting like that. He will ruin his circulation in his legs and suffer knee problems as he ages...

Hi Dawg, I decided to try your suggestion for meditation as my regular practice for a while. I have been doing 2 sessions per day, 1 hour for each session. For the first four days, after about 5 minutes in each session, a kind of wave occured and in the background, behind the focus on the sound of Buddho, I could see visions and what appeared to be dreams occuring. Actually, I recognize them as dreams because if I grasp at any one of them, I find myself in a lucid dream.. And it is typical to feel that "wave" take place which usually anounces that REM is about to occur. For the last couple of days the dreams/visions no longer occur. Instead, I'm seeing abstract patterns of lights in the background, beautiful colors and patterns. Nothing like I've ever seen before. I suspect that by maintaining focus on the breath and the mantra it is stirring up winds. I think that performing a mantra (even silently) is kicking in the throat chakra, which then creates the dreams and visions (these types of visions). I do admit, it is easier to maintain consistent focus on the objects of awareness (the breath and the Buddho) when they are combined because each new breath brings a new batch of thoughts, but if you are focusing on the sound of the mantra, the new batch of thoughts comes in and then goes out because you are not grasping at them. So, in a way, you are precipitating the natural dissolution and release of thoughts and visions too (when not focused on them). This is sort of like Dzogchen's remaining in the natural state. Is the point of this Buddho practice to purify the subconscious? What is the next stage past the abstract light patterns that I am seeing? Will they gradually slow down and fade away when I achieve shamatha? Will I need to drop the mantra at some point? Thanks..

The light which shines in the eye is really the light of the heart. The light which fills the heart is the light of God*, which is pure and separate from the light of intellect and sense. Rumi

Taklung Tsertrul is one of the senior members of the Nyingma tradition. How did you manage that? Did you go to India? http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Taklung_Tsetrul_Rinpoche How long have you been practicing?

Well then I would recommend two practice manuals: http://www.amazon.com/The-Meditation-Clear-Light-Transmission/dp/B0076WQZ8Q/ref=pd_sxp_f_i And http://www.amazon.com/The-Stages-A-Khrid-Meditation-Tradition/dp/8186470034/ref=pd_sxp_f_pt You will find that both books at some point mention the three channels, the cakras as an aid to developing the visions (if you don't see any visions). I was going to ask you, who is your guru? Is it CN Norbu? Where do you get your information from? When you referred to the second vision, were you talking from experience or were you restating what you had read somewhere?

Flat panel monitors don't have an electron beam... Cathode rays are gone... That is old technology...

Read http://holybooks.lichtenbergpress.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/Selections-form-the-Bonpo-Book-of-the-Dead.pdf?41c083 Then we'll talk..

Hi Lucky, I just have to ask... What is up with that? I thought you had found the end all with Sadguru. I think it is great to expore other systems, especially Kunlun. Not looking for a fight, just kind of curious..

Have you ever gazed at the sky and seen a bunch of little balls of light moving around, appearing and disappearing, glittering like little diamonds or minuscule moons, leaving a trail as they move? Sometimes these little stars appear and disappear in exactly the same location two or three times, then don't. There are hundreds of them all darting around in arced semi circles. Well, those little stars/balls of light are what is known as "vajra strands". They are the first stage, what you focus on during the very first stage of thogal! How wonderful to know this. These stars/balls of light appear when you fix your gaze and move your attention directly in front of your eyeballs. There is no need to cross your eyes or even try to alter the focus of your vision. It is the awareness that is the tool of focus. From "Naked Awareness" by Karma Chagme: http://www.amazon.com/Naked-Awareness-Practical-Instructions-Mahamudra/dp/1559391464# This is from http://www.american-buddha.com/vajra.heart.14.htm During the first meditation where I tried real hard to see the vajra strands with eyes closed, after about 40 minutes of intense focus, my breath detached. It felt like someone or something had pulled the rug out of my abdominal breathing mechanism. During the third meditative attempt at seeing the vajra strands, I saw the most beautiful nimitta which resembled a pure white disc of light. I have read that focusing the gaze stabilizes the very subtle winds. Now I know what that means. I've also learned that you can gaze with eyes closed as long as you keep that fresh attention/awareness pouring out through your eyes... I can see the vajra strands when gazing at my bath tub, the white background and the full spectrum bathroom lights make them easy to see. How about you? Any experiences you'd like to share?

Thogal is not non-meditation, it is a form of gazing. In the books I've read non- meditation is resting on the natural state, doing absolutely nothing. From "Naked Awareness": Do you have a source for your statements? Which book did you get all that from? It seems to be quite mixed up. For example, trekchod is, according to The Golden Letters, a method of relaxation and preparation for thogal... Anyway, I believe I have supported my statements in his thread with verified quotes. You, in the other hand are not supporting your ideas with quotes or references but almost seem to be recalling them from memory or some other source.

Hi Wangchungman, I mentioned Sagan's method for opening the third eye and the 'pressure' to show that they are related. I am not mixing up the Ati System with chakras. I brought up the Thogal exercises from "Natural Libertaion" to show that the point between the eyebrows is relavant and vital. Yes, the Kati Channel does not touch the brow. Never said it did. And, there is only one Kati channel which forks out into the two eyes. I never said that the light appears in the skull. It doesn't. It appears out front. However, there is also a light behind the brows inside the skull.. And, no, that light is not in the eyes. Yes, for Dzogchen, the energy never gathers and charges up any particular chakra. The practice of non-meditation, the penultimate instruction instruction in Dzogchen is simply to let everything be just as it is. However, we are not talking about that practice, we are talking about Thogal. There is a difference. Therefore, your assumptions which lead to your final conclusion don't follow. The central channel ends at the brow, or just a little beyond. The two channels, left and right, bend downwards and terminate at the nostrils. The Kati channel goes to the eyes and terminate at the pupils. What the book, and other books like "Karma Chagme's book called "Naked Awareness" are telling us is that the point between the eyebrows plays a key role in Thogal. First off, the Kati is one channel and it is recognized as being apart from the other channels. The lamp of the pristine absolute space is the one between the eyebrows. In these next instructions, it explicitly states that by gazing and focusing on the point between the eyebrows the vital energies are inserted into the central channel. When one dissolves energies into the central channel, it is the same 'pressure' that one senses when one is activating the third eye. Coincidence or not, the fact remains that the location between the eyebrows plays a vital role in thogal. The Thogal process, as far as I can understand it, is that the primordial wisdom arises from the heart, follows the kati channel into the eyes, and then the gaze directs the primordial wisdom into the central channel which terminates at the point of the gaze. It forms a connection, a loop if you will. We all know that the central channel is "The Great Dissolver". Again, in the book "Naked Awareness", it clearly defines the difference between the kati lamp and the lamp of absolute space: Therefore, your interpretation is quite different from Padmasambhava's and Karma Chagme's. Perhaps you could site some sources of your interpretation so that we could check them out. Thanks for your comments.

You are right. I am nothing. Why does nothing bother you so much?

From http://weeraperuma.com/krishnamurti.html Then again you post a post which lumped Christianity, Adaita Vedanta, and Dzogchen all together under the aegis of "self removal" into the same sentence. How ludicrous! And where exactly does Dzogchen teach practices to " remove the self"? And even if you called Dzogchen "Buddhist", there is no little "self" in Buddhism so why would they even have practices to remove it? All he Buddhist teachings say that even if you tried to find the self, you will not find it.

Sometimes people need a good kick in the ass to wake them up. That's why there are wrathful deities in buddhism. That's why there are gurus that shoot and attack their disciples. That's why the zen masters hit their students with sticks. That's why Buddhists yell out PHAT when they are most calm. That why Tilopa and Naropa behaved like lunatics. That's why the Bon masters are feared, their lunacy serves as a testament of their realization. Don't believe that a fake loving attitude will do anybody any good. It's a form of hypocrisy. Life loves you with all its being. But it still lets you get sick, suffer and die. Save your advice for someone whom is willing to listen..