Tibetan_Ice

I found some comments about this topic. I am inclined to believe that this writer misses the point that Buddha realized that not everyone had their divine eye open therefore he tailored his teachings relative to the capacities of his audience. However, this writer, although trying to cast doubt upon the "divine eye" methodology, never disproves it. http://measurelessmind.ca/nimitta.html The writer claims that the proper method of breath meditation is to focus on the sensations that occur at the nostrils. It is funny because Ajahn Brahm says that one should not focus at he nostrils because that just becomes "nose meditation". Rather, Ajahn Brahm says that one should focus on the part of the mind that "knows" the breathing and cultivate the beautiful breath... It is too bad that there are so many differing versions of anapanasati or Buddhas breath meditation. One has to rely on what works for them based on trial and error. Is the Vimuttimagga worth reading?

.

.

Yes, but developing the divine eye (third eye) is a step on the way to enlightenment, one which lets you realize the nimittas and enter the jhanas, which is how the Buddha became enlightened. If you can use "immediate knowledge" to realize enlightenment, then good for you. But most of us mortal beings need to develope a step by step approach, and part of that stepladder, according to the Upakkilesa Sutta, is the divine eye which realizes nimittas. Clairvoyance is the equivalent to the divine eye: http://dharmafarer.org/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/5.18-Anuruddha-Upakkilesa-S-m128-piya.pdf Clarivoyance is not just the ablity to know the future, other minds or previous lives, it is third-eye sight. So, yes, the divine eye does not make you realize your essence, but it lets you take a step closer.

It is pretty funny too, how the Bon "white A" that you gaze at as a preliminary practice resembles the spheres that the Olds drew:

Ok. Here is the thing. Buddha was supposed to be the 12'th Dzogchen Buddha. The implication is that if Buddha became enlightened by mastering the jhanas, and Buddha was a Dzochen master, then mastering the jhanas must have led Buddha to Dzogchen. Perhaps the "Lights and Visions of forms" that are part of mastering the jhanas are the same as the thogal visions. They both lead to the same place. I have the Olds' book of paintings of the thogal visions and they look the same as some of the visions that I am seeing. It could be idiotic to dismiss nimittas and jhanas because they may be the method that Buddha used to learn how to arrive and remain in the Primordial Wisdom. Think about it.

Xabir, Thank you for sharing and sharing your experience. Lately, I have come accross some realizations, experiences. My meditations have been to turn the attention back towards the thoughts that arise towards the left back of the head. I examine a thought and watch it dissolve. I focus on the little space left behind and then try to remain there. Another thought appears and I again I behold it until it dissolves. I do not let the thought proliferate or cause other thoughts. I remain in the space, watching. After about 10 minutes of doing that, there is an energetic shift which takes place. It feels as though the inner body dissociates from the physical. My hands become fields of energy and it feels like my body has fallen away. That is when the visions start. I then proceed to do the same technique to the visions. I don't follow them, but look directly at them while keeping a certain distance from them. Sometimes I receed back into 'that which is watching the consciousness watching.. When the visions dissolve, they always dissolve into rainbows and very small beads of fine light bubbles. As I maintain my perspective, some of the visions that arise are so real, crisp and clear that they appear just like a normal worldly scene would. This is becoming quite common and I am gaining the understanding that this worldly reality appears to be just like the vivid scenes during my meditations. The interesting thing about this type of meditation, in which I am trying to do nothing but remain in the natural state, is not only causing visions but also precipitating nimittas (very bright lights that resemble the sun poking through the clouds. Very bright blinding intense light. Just by doing next to nothing. This made me realize that you don't have to do breath meditation to realize nimittas, it is more based on the stillness/calm of the mind. The other thing I will mention is that a few weeks ago, I had a dream that was so real that I had to really think about it in the dream. I thought that I was really in another reality. When I thought about it, I decided the only way to see if I was dreaming or not was to turn my attention back towards myself. When I did that, my presence became filled with very clear golden light, like the light of pure consciousness and I then had a satori moment, right there in the dream. Then, I woke up. So, yes, I can see that Thusness' comment about it spilling over into other aspects of reality seems to be the case. But mostly, right now, I'm very happy that I've found Buddha's method that he used to become enlightened. I will write about it in another thread. All the best. TI

Hi Xabir, The projector... A few years ago I spent two months doing a meditation which Tolle describes as " sensing the inner body", every day, twice a day. It became my regular practice. During the meditations I performed samadhi on the sense of the life force that pervades the body. As a result of doing the practice, I found that every kind of event happened on its own, the arising of kundalini, the visions and lights (nimittas), great ecstasy, all without focusing on them or willfully trying to produce them. After a few weeks I would go to bed and watch my body sleep, see the little mind churn away, see the little cloud of dreams appear, listen to me snore... From a semi-dark large space. Then in the morning, the only thing that I was aware of was the feeling of me, like a tiny spec of "I" in the middle of nowhere. Then, I would watch the whole universe get created and I would end up back in bed in normal consciousness. I quit the practice because it was too unnerving, I thought it might be bad for my health and it was messing with my mind. But lately it has come back and I am ok with it. I am this little point in a huge open semi-dark space that only knows the feeling of "me". Then everything goes whoosh and I create my reality. I am the projector. It is awesome that such a little point can project such a large universe! Today I found a very interesting post which explains the sensing of the inner body practice which I got from Tolle http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.119.than.html It is one of the most powerful practices I have found... Thanks again for your comments.

We'll I think I will throw out out "The Marvelous Primordial State". Steve, that is an interesting book. Especially the fact that all of the female lineage are quite adamant the the Nature is beyond description and cannot be described nor conceptualized.. "When you look back towards your thoughts, they liberate without a trace. There is no colour, no form, nothing which you can explain. This is called Empty Nature. But if you compare this Emptiness with that of the Madhyamaka or Cittamatra View or with anything else and think that there are similarities, then you are making a mistake and deviating from the correct view. Dzogchen Nature is not connected with expectations, conceptual understanding or comparisons. It is completely beyond all of this. Nor is it concerned with activities. So it cannot be compared with any other view on emptiness. This Nature is only a vast unspeakable state, Great Bliss. That is the teaching." From Heart Essence of the Khandro. This whole thread has made for some very interesting reading! I certainly appreciate everyone's' posts. It will take a while to digest all of that.

http://thetaobums.com/topic/34580-how-the-buddha-became-enlightened-with-the-jhanas/ Sorry for double post..

It is so sad that people shoot the messengers rather than think for themselves and assess the teachings on their own grounds. The Olds themselves state that they accomplished all the levels and judging by their recommended practices which are all from the heart, they have found something incredibly sacred and profound. But then, it is not unusual to shoot the messenger, isn't it? I thought Buddha taught to evaluate everything on its own merits.

Apparently, what you read and what I read must be totally different, either that or what you understand and what I understand are totally different. In "The Marvelous Primordial State", it says: "I am the creator" and "I have created everything". (however, it is not a separate God or universal creator, but the self, the primordial state). and: "The real sense refers to the primordial state of the individual that by its very nature possess the potentiality to effortlessly and with intentionality manifest the whole universe and the beings who inhabit it."

You say that Malcolm's logic is correct. Then you say that "The basis is completely illusory and unreal, and so its appearances are equally illusory and unreal. " Have you got another Dzogchen source that you can quote, which supports this view? In "The Marvelous Primordial State" it states that "Reality is the emptiness, the primordial purity, that is the basis from which all phenomenon arise and these phenomema have no essence." -page 24 And then later it states: "In this chapter, the Teacher says "I am the origin, the essence, and also the end of all Enlightened Ones and of all sentient beings.". The basis is the primordial state, therefore, the primordial state (origin) has essence, yet what arises from the basis has no essence. Therefore, the basis, which is the essence, manifests phenomena with no essence. This is an example of something derived from the basis which does not contain something from the basis. If Malcolm's statement were true, then the preceding statements from "The Marvelous Primordial State" would be false. Are you and Malcolm saying that "The Marvelous Primordial State" is not right?

http://www.bbsradio.com/content/talk-show-episode-new-realities-april-8-2014

Even found a practice for it from Robert and Rachel Olds' book called "Luminous Heart of the Earth". http://www.amazon.com/Luminous-Heart-Earth-Survival-Original/dp/0983194599

We'll it was more like it found me... From https://kindle.amazon.com/work/wonders-natural-mind-dzogchen-tradition-ebook/B000AJJHG4/B001W0ZA02

"All phenomenal existence is explained as being a projection of the original light that resides in the physical heart and manifests through the eyes; this implies that objective concrete reality is merely illusion. " From Tenzin Wangyal's Wonders of the Natural Mind I've found that projector a few times now... I'm not the only one, am I?

Hi Xabir Long time no see! I hope you are doing well. I think if Malcolm had thought about that statement (bolded), he wouldn't have said it. In "The Marvelous Primordial State", it starts out by saying "The marvelous primordial state is the real dimension". In my opinion, just because the movie that is projected on the screen is empty and without substance, does not mean that the projector is also without substance. The basis and its manifestions are not the same. According to Tenzin Wangyal, the basis (kunzhi) has the following characteristics.. and these characteristics serve to differentiate the real from the illusion. For example, no manifestation or object is permanent. Yet the basis is permanent, everlasting: Thus, if the basis is real it obviously can manifest things which although they seem to 'real', are impermanent and dependantly origininated, mere appearances. Therefore Malcolm's statement that the basis is not real is not true. So his resulting logic is flawed.

It comes from a post at AYP where Christi says the following: http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12716&whichpage=2#109074 As interesting as this story is, I also had it confirmed by someone who had spent three years with Steve Grey. And, yes, if Adya was in fact enlightened or at least had achieved some of the mudane siddhis, he should have known what the effects of shaktipat would have been, especially on his dope-smoking buddies (drugs and kundalini don't mix well). Even the 'great' Yogani doesn't have much nice to say about Adya (perhaps Yogani is just being an arrogant snot, like he usually is to people who don't agree with him or his scientifically created methods.. ). [sarcasm..] http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12716#108614 Yogani wrote: I think this probably sums up Adyshanti's behaviour, or at least it sounds like a great excuse for his blunders: http://blog.gaiam.com/quotes/authors/adyashanti?page=1 He sure woke me up. And I'm so glad he did. I ended up finding much better writings and practices by sincere practitioners and enlightened masters, such as Tenzin Wangyal, Tenzin Namdak, Urgyen Rinpoche, Longchen Rabjam, Alan Wallace, Ajahn Brahm..

The Kulayaraja tantra? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kulayarāja_Tantra Yes it appears that Samantabhadhra is the Creator. How interesting. But why do you say that this is just symbolic? Do you mean the aspect of pretending to be human? It would appear that the primordial state is the creator, whether or not it is personified. Thanks for pointing out that Tantra. That makes two sources now that indicate that our reality is created, one Dzogchen and one Buddhist.

This topic has been discussed before http://thetaobums.com/topic/28621-adyashanti-the-end-of-your-world/?hl=+adyashanti%20+shaktipat This review was a real eye opener, where Adyashanti says that I have read so many Buddhist and Dzogchen books that say that there is no enlightenment without boddhicitta that I cannot believe anyone would say that... The heart is the key. Even thogal is the mastery of the heart visions through the Kati channel and it is pure bliss/love. Adyashanti missed the boat. Here is the full review..

At the top of the picture..."The Marvelous Primordial State". http://www.amazon.com/Marvelous-Primordial-State-Elio-Guarisco/dp/8878341290/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top

You found stillness, you never found awareness, the primordial ground. The primordial awareness is not still. It is that from which everything arises, it is far from still. It spontaneously manifests appearances, wonderous magical beautiful ugly disgusting appearances including thoughts, emotions, pleasure and suffering. It is luminous, loving, infinite and words cannot truly describe it. It has been your karma that you have had the experiences that have solidified your views into something like a stone. So be it. No point in talking to you. You're the one who will have to break yourself out of your prison. Good luck.

Sure, it is hard not to grasp at a sexually stimulating image. But it is even harder not grasp at the self. It is also very hard to watch TV without grasping, to see just the images as appearances of light. The kind of Grasping that I believe Buddhists talks about, though, occurs at a much deeper level from before we have created these images and appearances.

it is the Japanese Kunlun master Kan dissolving his body...