Tibetan_Ice

Let's get with the program here, Alwaysoff. Most all Buddhists (Bon) too say that we all have access to the natural state, the primordial ground etc and that if one clears the obscurations away one will realize it. Or, as in Bon, you just let everything be and you will come to realize your own true state. The basic assumption is that we all have (including animals and sentient beings) the connection and the potential for realization. Anadi is saying that this is false. Anadi is saying that you have to recognize and develop the 'me' first. Then, you align it with the soul. It is the soul that then continues its evolution. But, Anadi also says, that not everyone is capable of evolving and some will fail and just dissolve back into nothingness. If all sentient beings are part of the Primordial Ground, it would be impossible to just dissolve back into nothingness.

Hi Spotless So have you ever driven your vehicle with your eyes closed, just by using your third eye for vision? TI

This sounds neo-advaitan. The authentic traditions teach about the inseperability of emptiness and awareness, or emptiness and clarity, or emptiness and perception. Without the emptiness part, awareness has no room to spontaneously manifest perceptions. The ultimate identity of self is that you are everything. Self is not a good term because it implies a division between self and others. While consciousness is aware, awareness is not necessarily conscious nor is it dependant on consciousness. Using the term "conscious awareness" implies that "unconscious awareness" also exists, when in fact awareness (inseperably joined with emptiness) far surpasses consciousness. If there were not 'two minds' as you put it, when Buddha became enlightened, we would all have become enlightened. This obviously did not occur. Where exactly did is it written that Jesus said that? I can find: John 3:16 - #1 Eternal Life Bible Scripture- Jesus "For God loved the world so much that he gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life. And this: Matthew 10: "If you cling to your life, you will lose it; but if you give up your life for me, you will find it."And this: "He who has found his life will lose it, and he who has lost his life for My sake will find it." (Matt. 10:39) "and He died for all, so that they who live might no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf." (2 Cor. 5:15) "I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me." (Gal. 2:20) – Jas 3.1 Feb 6 at 21:04 So if you are saying that Jesus said that giving up one's life is dwelling in awareness thereby realizing eternal life, I would beg to differ. Spiritual powers are part and parcel of the realization of the inseperability of emptiness and awareness. They are powers of the heart, the sacred heart. Don't dismiss them as balderdash. The mind, that which knows, cannot grasp enlightenment for it is beyond mind, beyond consciousness. The reason why people are not enlightened is because they attempt to grasp the ungraspable with consciousness, not knowing that there is something more profound which can realize their natural state. It lives in the sacred heart. TI

From Masters of the Zhang Zhung Nyengud 19. Mugyung Karpo "Once you have realized the Natural State, remain stable. As for all the visions and movements of consciousness which appear spontaneously, just leave them alone while you yourself try to remain as stable as possible and become familiar with this Nature".

Hi R V, This is from "The Bliss of Inner Fire: Heart Practice of the Six Yogas of Naropa": If you are seeking great pleasure, certain ecstasy that lasts and lasts and perhaps the achievement of the 'illusory body', then tantra is the way to go. However, the illusory body is impermanent and well, more pleasure just breeds more desire, greater pleasure. It is not liberating. This is from the book called "Masters of the Zhang Zhung Nyengyud -Pith Instructions from the Experiential Transmission of Bonpo Dzogchen - Teachings by Yongdzin Lopon Tenzin Namdak". http://www.amazon.com/Masters-Nyengyud-Yongdzin-Tenzin-Namdak/dp/8170262682 I should also mention, Bodhichitta has different meanings according to whom is teaching. I like to think of it as heart essence. From: Bonpo Dzogchen Teachings according to LOPON TENZIN NAMDAK TI

Alwaysoff, Yes it is all about visions but not in the way you have understood it. Ajahn Brahm's Mindfulness, Bliss and Beyond is about samadhi, the jhanas and the achievements which are derived from fixing the the attention on objects like the breath, the nimittas, the counterpart signs etc, realizing the jhanas and then after, using the empowered mind to perform insight inquiry. In Dozgchen, such a constriction of awareness does not permit the natural state (rigpa) to spontaneously produce visions as the open emptiness and appearances are not realized. This is how Tsoknyi Rinpoche puts it: From "Ground, Path, and Fruition - Teachings of Tsoknyi Rinpoce on mind and mind essence" - Tony Duff So you see, the appearances are very important. The visions are very important. Again, I should mention that they are not talking about visualization, nor are they talking about grasping the appearances. The more one grasps at a vision or an appearance, the more solid it becomes and this enforces the dualistic subject-object relation. In Dzogchen, when the visions arise, you just let them be and they will dissolve on their own. That is the difference between what Ajahn Brahm teaches and what Tenzin Namdak teaches. And, when visions or appearances arise, it is a good indicator that you have realized some form of emptiness.

Hi Cat, It is wonderful that you see runes/runic symbols at the third eye! Can you keep that up by just letting go? I think you should really read this. It is from Tenzin Namdak's book called Bonpo Dzogchen Teachings, which I linked to previously. If you are getting visions during meditation, especially shapes and symbols, you have managed to realize the natural state, the thekchod part. Now the task becomes to stay in that state and dissolve the visions, the Thodgal part. Don't be inimidated by the terminology, if you have any questions, just ask. QUOTE: Thekchod and Thodgal Most of the extant Bonpo texts dealing with Dzogchen are Upadesha. In the Upadesha or Manngagide (man-ngag gi sde), the emphasis is put on Thekchod and Thodgal. Thekchod means entering into and remaining in the Natural State. This is mainly concerned with the state of primordial purity (ka-dag), but Thodgal is the other half of Upadesha practice and refers to spontaneous self-perfected manifestation (lhun-grub ). Here the practitioner uses posture, breathing and gazing. But nevertheless, as the base and foundation for this Thodgal practice we first need to establish our Thekchod firmly, which means being able to continue with stability in the Natural State. Thekchod means that we enter into and continue in the Natural State. We begin practice by turning inward and observing the mind. But there is no visualization practice to be done here. We do not need to become engaged in the activities of Kyerim and Dzogrim as is the case with Tantra. All we have to do is to be aware without distraction and observe the arising of thoughts. We observe that they dissolve again without leaving a trace. As long as we remain in the Natural State, no visualization is needed. If we need the supports of visualization and mantra in our practice, then we are not ready for Dzogchen. When we are actually in the Natural State, we do not examine whether it is good or bad. There is no judging or thinking about something as, for example, when we watch TV. If we are examining or judging or focusing on something, this is the work of the mind, and therefore we are not in the Natural State. If we focus the attention, we lose the Natural State. Any focusing or fixating of attention is the work of the mind, and then we are no longer in the Natural State. So we do not judge in any way the thoughts that arise. If we relax our fixation on an object like the white A, then it seems as if more thoughts arise. They become like rough water in a mountain stream. But if we continue the practice, later the mind becomes like a slow-moving river and, eventually, like a calm sea. At first we will need a quiet place to practice because many distractions come to disturb us. And also we may have problems with drowsiness, dullness and agitation. However, methods exist for overcoming these problems. Drowsiness and dullness mean that our energy is not there. For drowsiness, we need fresh air and to find a higher place. For dullness, we need to add energy in order to make things clearer. Agitation can be coarse or subtle. The first is easy to recognize, whereas the second is very difficult to detect and we do not realize that we are distracted. If agitation is very rough, we need to stop practice and do something else for a time. This is how to practice Thekchod. Thodgal Visions The reason why we do Thodgal practice is in order to realize that the vision of ordinary normal life is equally illusory and insubstantial. We think that our impure karmic vision, that is, the world as we see it as human beings, is solid and real and concrete. But this vision is all a projection arising from causes. Because we all have the cause for human karmic vision, we humans see the world in more or less the same way. But we must understand the illusory nature of our karmic vision. The practice of Thodgal may also serve as a preparation for the after-death experience, where visions arise in the Bardo. As an example of such spontaneous visions, close the eyes and press with the fingers on the eyelids and the eyeballs. We will see lights. These are not actual Thodgal visions, but just a kind of introduction. Thodgal visions are natural and not artificial. They are not deliberately created, as a visualization is, by the mind. In a dark room, we can also have ordinary visions that are not Thodgal. But for our vision to develop, we must employ the Dzogchen methods. We must understand that these spontaneous visions exist in, and develop in, the Natural State. However, all of these visions are illusions; there is nothing substantial there. Thodgal vision may at first appear different from our normal everyday vision, but we should realize that these two kinds of vision ultimately have the same nature. They are both projections and until we realize this, we are not ready to do Thodgal practice. In Dzogchen, we are introduced to there being one source, rather than Two Truths. For example, we put our fingers in our ears and what happens? We hear self-originated sounds (rang sgra). In order to hear, normally we need the ear. But here we hear a sound, and not through the ear consciousness. Or again, press the fingers on the lids covering the eyeballs, then suddenly release them and open the eyes. We see self-originated lights (rang 'od) and self-originated forms and colors, technically called "rays" (rang zer). We see them when the eyes are closed and we continue to see them when the eyes have opened. When we have our eyes open, we usually see through our eye consciousness but, in this case, the lights and colors are not seen by means of the eye consciousness; they are only seen by Rigpa. This is only an example in order to introduce us to Thodgal. In Thodgal, everything that appears is natural and spontaneous; it is not a visualization made by mind. It is not something artificial. Dzogchen just does what is natural, therefore, it represents a much shorter path to enlightenment. Besides Kadak, or primordial purity or Shunyata, the Natural State has this quality of Lhundrub or spontaneous manifestation, and this is not something recognized by Madhyamaka. The method of Madhyamaka represents a via negativa (negation), but it neglects the positive side of the Natural State. Dzogchen, on the other hand, emphasizes both equally, because Kadak and Lhundrub are Yermed, that is, inseparable in the Natural State. Thodgal possesses methods using various sources of light, such as sunlight, moonlight, lamplight, crystals, and so on. Then there are methods for gazing into the clear, empty sky and for retreats in total darkness. In all of these cases, the Thodgal visions that arise are not perceived by the eye consciousness, but by our Rigpa. Although sunlight, and so on, represent secondary causes for the arising of the visions, the visions themselves do not arise from some external source; they arise from within us. There are no limits to these visions. Certainly visions of deities may arise, but impure karmic visions may also arise, especially at first. But whatever visions arise, they arise spontaneously and naturally. According to some Dzogchen teachings, we are instructed to do the practice for seven sessions, signifying the six realms of rebirth, plus the Bardo. And so, visions of animals, ghosts, demons, and many other kinds of worldly beings may arise. According to the dark retreat found in the Zhang-zhung Nyan-gyud, there are seven sessions, but these are not according to the six realms. Visions of thigleys (thig-le}, or spheres of light, arise and inside them we may see deities, such as the famous Zhitro (zhikhro}, or Peaceful and Wrathful Deities. But this is not at all the same as the Kyerim and the Gyulu practices described in the Tantras because they are things created by the mind. Rather, the Thodgal visions arise out of the Natural State naturally and spontaneously. The Natural State, although diffused throughout the physical body, is principally located in the hollow space within the physical heart (tsitta}. The Thodgal visions, even in dark retreat, appear only in front of us because the translucent Kati channel links the heart to the eyes. Inside the eyes, we find two separate channels, one is the vehicle for the normal operation of the eye consciousness, known as the optic nerve, and the other is the Kati channel which functions as the passageway for the movement of Rigpa. The Kati goes up from the hollow in the physical heart to the back of the brain and then divides into two before entering into the eyes. This Kati is not used for the normal functioning of vision. It is called the translucent crystalline channel Kati (ka-ti shel gyi rtsa). In Thodgal, the visions arise in the heart, pass along the Kati channel, emerge from the eyes, and are perceived in the space immediately in front of us. It is like having a lamp inside a hollow earthen vessel with two holes on one of its faces. The light inside is then seen in the darkness outside the vase, but its source is in the interior. With the practice of Thodgal, our visions develop and gradually become more stable. At first we may see normal things like trees, mountains, and so on. Later we will most likely see letters, deities, and so on. At first these visions will not be stable, but will move about quite a bit. Moreover, we may only see parts of the deities, such as a face, or a torso. But with the third stage in the development of vision, we will see deities in yab-yum and entire mandalas, and all of this will be complete and perfect and bright. At the fourth stage, which is known as consummation (zad-pa), all the visions dissolve and all that remains is the Natural State. Since there are no more obscurations, there is nothing more to appear. However, Thodgal is not like Tantra where we must do much visualization practice first in order for visions of the Yidams to appear. If the visions arise from some positive karmic causes, such as Kyerim, then we do need to practice in a special way. In that case, the resultant visions would be conditioned by our previous visualization practice. But these would not be Thodgal visions because they arise from causes created by the mind. Furthermore, we must compare our Thodgal visions with the vision of ordinary life in order to discover that they come from the same source. The Thodgal visions are insubstantial. We can easily see that they are illusions. We see them come and we see them go. But our normal life vision appears to be very stable and seemingly solid. We think that this vision is real, but this is only our ignorance. So the practice of Thodgal provides us with an example. Thodgal vision is like a key to the realization that normal life is also a projection and an illusion. We can bring the knowledge gained from Thodgal practice to bear on the vision of normal life. We compare them and we discover that all of our socalled normal life is an illusion. If we cannot make this comparison, then perhaps it is better just to watch TV. Now while we are in the Natural State, we do not do any checking and examining because this is the work of the mind, but at other times we can examine the various qualities of the visions and compare them with the vision of ordinary life. Through making this comparison of the Thodgal visions with normal vision, we gradually come to sense that the external world is equally unreal. Our ordinary life seems to have the same quality as the Thodgal visions, that is to say, as unreal and as insubstantial. This culminates with the third stage in the development of vision. The visions of the deities and mandalas come to overlay and even replace our ordinary impure karmic vision. At the fourth stage, all of these visions dissolve and go back to their source. They return to the Natural State and there is nothing left except the Natural State. If we die at a time when we have realized the first stage, then in the Bardo and in our next life we will meet the masters and the teachings again and again, and so continue to practice until we attain liberation. If we die at a time when we have realized the final stages, we will be reborn in a pure dimension. The Thodgal visions come spontaneously and without anticipation. When they go, they leave no traces. Our keeping in the Natural State purifies all obscurations and the main obscuration is ignorance. The three principal methods are through sunlight, total darkness, and empty space. But in order to practice Thodgal, first we must realize the Natural State. So Thekchod, which means just remaining in the Natural State undistracted by thoughts, -is something that is always necessary in Dzogchen practice. If visions arise and we become attached to them, then this is no different from Samsara. When we have visions in the practice of Thodgal, we have no grasping ('dzin-pa) at them because we are in the Natural State. In the vision of daily life, on the contrary, we are constantly grasping at one thing after another. Through the perfection of Thekchod, we may even be able to think and to do Tantric practice while still remaining in the Natural State, and then this will be like gazing at the moon reflected on the sea. Development of Visions Without Thekchod, we cannot practice Thodgal. Visions may come, but they will not be Thodgal visions. First we must practice Thekchod and make our remaining in the Natural State stable, then we can go on to practice Thodgal. In this way our visions will be stable. In Thodgal both pure and impure visions can come, but gradually the visions will become clearer and clearer, and then more and more integrated with our normal vision. In the end this integrated vision will dissolve into the Natural State, both Thodgal vision and normal vision. The ultimate purpose of practicing Thodgal is to realize the Rainbow Body of Light. This occurs after all of our vision has been integrated. Our physical body is also part of our karmic vision, so when all of our vision dissolves into the Natural State, our physical body dissolves into empty space. The method for realizing the Rainbow Body ('ja' Ius) may be either gradual or instantaneous. In terms of its gradual realization, we speak of the four stages in the development of vision, or Nangwa zhi (snangba bzhi). These are as follows: 1. The vision of the visible manifestation of Reality (bon-nyid mngon-sum). At this initial stage only small thigleys, or tiny spheres of rainbow light, appear in the sunlight. 2. The vision of the increasing of experiences. Now chains and networks of thigleys appear. Also, the faces and torsos of deities may appear inside the thigleys. 3. The vision of developing to the full measure of Awareness. This stage represents the full development of the pure visions of the deities and the mandalas, including the Peaceful and Wrathful Deities. Some of the thigleys may be as small as a mustard seed, while others are as large as a shield. 4. The vision of the final consummation (mthar-thug zad-pa). All of the visions dissolve back into the Natural State, and only that remains. These visions are not always stable. When they dissolve spontaneously, it may be a sign that we are ready to realize the Rainbow Body. Visions have two alternative qualities: pure and impure. At the final stage, all of our visions are pure. But at the moment our normal everyday life vision is impure. There are two doors that must be opened: the pure and the impure. Inside them there are four doors apiece, making a total of eight doors. This is according to what kind of visions come. Thodgal visions arise spontaneously from our Natural State, and how they develop depends on our individual capacity, level of purification, and so on. But if, for example, a master appears before us and gives us some teaching, this is not a Thodgal vision but a pure vision (dag snang). It is conditioned and brought about by some cause or karmic link. Examples of this are the visions some T ertons have had of Guru Padmasambhava. These pure visions come about because of a cause or seed planted in the Terton's stream of consciousness in a previous life when he was a disciple in personal contact with Guru Rinpoche. A Thodgal vision, on the other hand, has no external cause; it arises solely from within, from out of one's Natural State residing in the heart. It is natural ~nd spontaneous, without any antecedent cause. It represents the free spontaneous creativity (rtsal) inherent in the Natural State which is our innate Buddha-nature. The Four Lamps In the practice of Thodgal, we speak of four lights or Four Lamps (sgron-ma bzhi), or sometimes of Six Lamps (sgron-ma drug). These Four Lamps are as follows: 1. The lamp of the self-originated wisdom (shes-rab rang-byung gi sgron-ma) 2. The lamp of the completely pure dimension of space (dbyings rnam-dag gi sgron-ma) 3. The lamp of the (globe-like eye of) water that lassos everything at a distance (rgyang zhags chu'i sgron-ma), and 4. The lamp of the empty spheres of light (thig-le stong-pa'i sgron-ma). The First Lamp or light (sgron-ma) is Thekchod. We first need this lamp if we are to see anything. Thekchod is the fundamental practice and the principal practice. It means continuing in the Natural State with stability. This is intrinsic immediate awareness (rig-pa). Here Self-originated Wisdom (shes-rab rang-byung) means not the discriminating wisdom (shes-rab) of the Sutra system; in this context, it means Rigpa, the clarity aspect, in union with Kunzhi, the emptiness aspect. It is explained as being like the empty, open sky illuminated by sunlight. Certainly we must understand that the Natural State is empty, but also that it has three qualities and these are inseparable. First, this emptiness is immaterial and insubstantial, and so it is like the sky or Namkha (nam-mkha', sky, space). That is its quality. Whatever we do or take from it, this emptiness is always there as the Base. Even if we fill everything up and make clutter everywhere, this emptiness of space is still there as the container of everything. Whatever we do, Shunyata is always empty; it is not any bigger or any smaller by virtue of what it contains. Whatever we put into it or take out of it, it remains the same and undiminished as the Base. This aspect is called Ying (dbyings) or dimension. It is the dimension in which everything originates and happens. And this emptiness never changes whatever we do; it is never increased or diminished. That aspect is called Long (klong) or vast expanse. These are the three qualities to emptiness: space (nam-mkha'), dimension (dbyings), and vast expanse (klong). As for the Second Lamp: it is somewhat like watching a film show in the cinema hall. The Thodgal visions appear to manifest in the space before us, just as the cinema show does. When we do Thodgal practice, we gaze into the clear open sky and focus our gaze in this space without blinking. Then, at the horizon, or the tops of the trees, or on the side of the window frame, wherever we are gazing, we find that the space at this border becomes whiter and, at the center of our vision, it grows darker. If we are gazing out through a window, for example, we find that the sky will be lighter and whiter next to the window frame and darker at the center. As we continue to gaze, this light part around the border or at the edge becomes larger. However, the visions will only appear in the darker center. This is the dimension in which the Thodgal visions manifest. And they will be like the cinema pictures projected onto the screen in front of us. The Third Lamp refers to the physical eye as a doorway. The Kati channel connects the physical heart to the physical eye organs. In dark retreat, the visions are clearer and brighter than in daylight, but the principle is the same. In Thodgal practice, the eye organ is given this rather unusual name (rgyang zhags chu'i sgron-ma), where rgyang means "distance" or "at a distance", zhags means "lasso" or a rope with a noose at the end, and chu means "water." The eyeball is filled with water, so chu refers to the eyeball. When we gaze into space, our visions appear at some distance from us and our sight goes out to them and grasps them like lassoing a wild horse. We watch our visions develop with full awareness. That is the meaning of rgyang zhags. The eye organ is connected with the kidney which is ruled by the water element, therefore "water." According to ancient Bonpo medical science, the outer organs are controlled by the inner organs. This information, such as the correspondences eye-kidney-water element, nose-lung-air element, tongue-spleen-earth element, and so on, is given in the account of embryology found in the Zhang-zhung Nyan-gyud and elsewhere. As for the Fourth Lamp, it is like small white or black spots seen in the sky, or like the rainbow thigleys seen in sunlight. At first they are very tiny, but then they develop because we remain in the Natural State. Their nature is empty (stong-pa). They are called thigley because thig means "essence" as well as "a line drawn on a paper" to demarcate a mandala, and signifies being related to the essence or Natural State, and le means "very clearly," that it is very bright and clear. Therefore the meaning of thigle is that it is clear and connected with the Natural State. The Rainbow Body To become a real Jalupa ('ja'-lus-pa) means that we have practiced Thodgal. These visions are not specifically created by the mind, but appear spontaneously in the presence of secondary causes like sunlight, the open, empty sky, and so on. They arise naturally and spontaneously from the Natural State, and no Kyerim or Dzogrim practice must be done first as a preparation. We only need to stabilize our Thekchod practice. Then the visions come automatically. Gradually all of the Peaceful and Wrathful deities appear to us and these visions develop until completion. Then they dissolve again into the Natural State. This final stage in the development of vision is called the Exhaustion of Reality (bon-nyid zad-pa). Nevertheless these visions have the same quality and the same source as our normal vision in everyday life. Because our material body is part of our karmic vision and has the same source as the Thodgal visions, at the time when all of our visions dissolve, our material body will also dissolve. This occurs at the point of actual death when the impure elements of our material body will revert back (ru-log) into the subtle pure forms of the elements, which are clear, coloured lights. These lights manifest as rainbows, which then dissolve into the space of the sky. All that remains behind at the end of the process are the practitioner's clothes, hair and nails, because these things have not been suffused with consciousness. The material body had been part of one's impure karmic vision but now, for the practitioner, the pure visions become the actual Jalupa or Rainbow Body, which is the real Sambhogakaya and Nirmanakaya, and one becomes perfectly purified. In terms of Dzogchen, the Dharmakaya is realized through the practice of Thekchod, whereas the Form Body, that is, the Sambhogkaya and Nirmanakaya, is realized through the practice of Thodgal. The attaining of the Rainbow Body by a master is a sign or indication that this has occurred. But this is not the end, even though liberation and enlightenment have been attained. The Jalupa can subsequently reappear, even appearing as substantially material, to sentient beings in order to teach them the Dharma. However the Sambhogakaya can only be seen by the Aryas, that is, the Great Bodhisattvas who have ascended the first through the ninth stage of the path. They can see the Sambhogakaya and hear the teachings. But ordinary sentient beings, their minds still obscured with defilements, cannot see or hear the Sambhogakaya. Therefore the Nirmanakaya manifests to them and reveals itself in time and history, generally in human form. END QUOTE TI

Hey, no fair. You said that Bon had illusory body before I put that quote in. And it is obvious that you haven't read the book because the section where I pulled the quote was a section which was comparing the various views to Bon Dzogchen, dismissing each other view as inferior. In that chapter, Tantra is being put in the same cateogories as: 2. The Attaining of Buddhahood according to Sutra, Tantra and Dzogchen 37 The Hinayana View 37 The Mahayana View 38 The Tantra View 40 The Dzogchen View 41 Yes, Bon has Sutra and Tantra, but even Tenzin Namdak says that they are different from other Tantras. Here, for example, he dismisses the higher tantras:

The way Lopon Tenzin Namdak describes the Natural State, you'd think it is the TAO. It cannot be talked about nor put into concepts. It is beyond mind. However, it can be realized. If you would like to read an excellent book on the Bonpo Dzogchen Teachings, this is it: http://www.scribd.com/doc/138921378/Lopon-Tenzin-Namdak-Bonpo-Dzogchen-Teachings There is even a whole chapter on "The Natural State" and you will find the term "Natural State" in hundreds of sentences.

In Bon Dzogchen, the five pure lights are:

Watzamater, can't answer my questions? You said Bon has Illusory body. Prove it.

Alwaysoff, Golly, did I say that Bon was Dzogchen? I am talking about Bon Dzogchen. I realize fully well that Bon masters often include other shamanic practices in their books, but they clearly specify that it is not Dzogchen. Again, you pulled a sentence out of context and drew some crazy conclusion. I am discussing "BON DZOGCHEN". Bon Dzogchen is neither sutra nor tantra as per Tenzin Namdak as per his quote, and from what I can tell, the development of the illusory body Gyulu is tantra, transforming prana sheaths into an impermanent light vehicle. But you bring up an interesting point. You have implied that because Bon contains sutra and tantra that there is a teaching in Bon to develop the Gyulu (Illusory Body). Where exactly does it say this? I have been checking all my Bon books and I can find no reference to this. I find it hard to believe that any Bon Dzogchen master would try to divert the student and teach how to create an illusory body instead of a rainbow body. Perhaps you could explain exactly what you meant when you said "The illusory body is in Bon as well". And please qualify, OLD BON. Tonpa Shenrab Miwoche, not new-age Dzogchen as per Padmasambhava/Garab Dorje..

The Illusory Body is not in Bon as the Illusory body is imperfect, there are still atoms that remain and it is not rainbow body. If you had read the quotes keeping the bolding in mind, you would have seen that the Guylu, although it is mistaken for the rainbow body is not the rainbow body, that the Gyulu is not permanent, that it is not a goal of pure Dzogchen and that Tenzin Namdak has pointed that out. Therefore, it is erroneous to say that "Bon has illusory body" as you have said because Tenzin Namdak has clearly segragated and divorced this concept from the pure Bon teaching.

Hi Cat This is a definition of the Natural State by Lopon Tenzin Namdak, the top Bon lineage Master: According to Tenzin Namdak, the "Natural State" is found all through the body but the largest deposit is in the heart. According to Tenzin Namdak (and the goal of Bon Dzogchen) first you find the Natural State, then you remain in it. You practice in meditation and then you practice outside of meditation until you incoporate the Natural State into your daily life, 24 hours a day. The purpose of remaining in the Natural State is to purify the obscurations and gain enlightenment. A by-product of the Bon method, since it puts its emphasis on the clarity/luminescence/awareness part of the equation, is that the practitioner will accomplish the rainbow body, which is when the five lights which make up reality dissolve back into pure light (from earth to yellow light, from fire to red light, from water to white light, from air to green light and from space into blue light). According to Bon, there is no difference between the normal reality we see in daily life and the visions that come from the heart. The purpose of the dark retreat is to show the practitioner that there is absolutely no difference, that all realities, normal and empty perceptions/visions are the same. Once realization is made of this, one gains control over the elements and can perform astounding feats, such as walk through walls, transport one's self to other locations, .. miracles.. Since the Natural State is difused in the body, you can sense it's presence by using various techniques like dissolving thoughts etc. But since the larger pool of the Natural State lies in the heart, it can come out of that Kati Channel and then you will have quite a good taste of it. I have experienced this heart-to-eyes Natural State five times now, coming out of the eyes through the kati channel. The resultant state has these characteristics: it seems that a luminous clear liquid has sprung forth out of you eyes. This liquid is shiny and bright and everything that is in it is also shiny, bright, luminous and very clear. There is immense love and joy. There is immense silence. There is the overwhelming feeling that you are everything (you are the tree, you are the grass, you are the sky etc). TI

I happen to be human first. I don't use my ethnicity, personal history or temporary beliefs as a crutch nor am I hindered by the prejudice and hatred that you, Alwaysoff, CT, and Kochhog Uma seem to accept. There are fine spiritual people and idiots in all races and historical lineages, and anyone who declares superiority or some kind of advantage by factors other than their own accomplishments and behaviour is fooling themselves. We have all had mutliple lives as different species, so why should your current personal history make you exempt from forum rules, or make the chips on your shoulders any more special than everyone elses'? Somehow I don't think racism, and joining together in groups to attack, laugh at, taunt and derail members' threads is representative of the general Buddhist population. I reported this to the Mods, but nothing was done. It's a free-for-all, isn't it? Who was it that said "Best to travel alone than in the company of fools?"

Apech, I have to ask you. Why is it ok for you to support a derailment of my thread while you seem to be adamant about preserving the integrity of this thread? http://thetaobums.com/topic/31912-ramana-quote-does-not-belong-in-cn-norbus-latest-book/?p=486201 I find it kind of hypocritical, especially considering "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." So I'm doing it unto you. Like it? TI

http://thetaobums.com/topic/31912-ramana-quote-does-not-belong-in-cn-norbus-latest-book/?p=486072 I find your statements here racist and highly offensive.

Maybe you should read it again.

DB, The answer to realizing the rainbow body, according to Lopon Tenzin Namdak, is sort of at direct opposites with cultivation or 'doing anything' other than just letting it be. There is mentioned some preliminary practices (Rushan) of focusing on the white letter 'A', and then turning around to dissolve the self, then learning how to dissolve the visions, but the main practice is remaining in that resultant state and grasping at absolutely nothing. The best book I have found so far is "Bonpo Dzogchen Teachings" by Lopon Tenzin Namdak. It contains comparisons between the various traditions as well as instructions for practice. It also tells about the Kati channel, the four lamps, and very clearly explains the relationship between Trecko and Thogal. http://www.scribd.com/doc/138921378/Lopon-Tenzin-Namdak-Bonpo-Dzogchen-Teachings TI

Alwaysoff, you should clarify your statement. According to Tenzin Namdak (OLD BON), the illusory body is not the rainbow body, but Tenzin Namdak says so his book called "Bonpo Dzogchen Teachings". Your blanket statement that the illusory body is in Bon is not entirely correct. Further, Tenzin Namdak also recognizes that Tsongkhapa's influence had extended to the 'new' Nyimgmapas and Bonpos, it does not affect the Old School Bon, for in Bon Dzogchen, there is no grasping at emptiness. -Further, as per topic in this thread, any body that is created out of prana and mind is impermanent. The logical conclusion would be that any body built out of Qi would also be impermanent. TI

4Bsolute There are two kinds of pulling that I am aware of during meditation. The first 'pulling' occurs during a deep meditation when sitting perfectly still and deeply relaxed, yet concentrated and focused. What happens is that body senses fall away. It usually comes like a wind or pleasant breeze of energy. I just relax into it and let it happen. The body is dissolving, falling away, not just like in Zazen, but it is a normal phenomenon when you meditate successfully. It feels like being pulled or swooning. After it occurs, most of the time I can feel body parts in different locations than the locations where they should be. For example, although I know my arms are resting on my legs, they 'feel' like they have assumed a joined position over the belly. Or, my tongue will feel like it is straight up, but it is resting flat. Also, at that point you can sort of float around a bit, like you've become an etheric cloud, dissociated from the body. But, your mental acuity increases dramatically and it becomes easier to do mental activities at that point. If you meditate regularily, with deep concentration, relaxation and resolve, what I've found is that the body dissolves, what I've described, about around the 20 minute mark. The push, or pull feels like it comes from the upper front of the head and is pushing you backwards, or pulling you backwards. Sometimes, the pull can be very strong. The other kind of pull is a top-down pull. That is a totally different thing. It occurs when the mind dissolves and gets pulled downwards towards the heart. It occurs after the body has dissolved, usually around the 40 minute mark. This pull is straight down, and it feels like you are going to pass out, or die or lose consciousness. This kind of pull is more frequent when meditating late at night, when the mind wants to shut off and you are releasing and letting go. It is the dissolution of the substrate consciousness into the substrate, as Alan Wallace would say. If you can get through the passage, which feels like passing out and stay alert and aware, and brave the fear, another kind of consciousness from the heart will take over. I don't have too much experience here so that last part is what I've read.. I suspect the fear is still there and I haven't pursued it much yet. On a few nights a few years ago, after much meditation, I had experiences of the back of my head opening up into a wide open space and my whole being was being pulled out into outer space, like someone had turned on a giant vacuum cleaner. I had to fight really hard to remain in the body.. In retrospect, I wish I hadn't fought it, just to see what would have happened, but at the time, there is an awful lot of fear that occurs when it just happens to you out-of-the-blue, lying in bed trying to sleep. Hope that helps. What kind of meditation are you doing? TI

PyLotus, That is the same Master Nan who died from pnemonia at the age of 94, and wrote that self-incriminating letter before dying? Actually, I think that you yourself pointed that out. http://thetaobums.com/topic/26671-master-nan-huai-chin-dead-at-94/?p=417520 So how can you believe anything M Nan says, let alone use his faulty understanding of what he believes is a rainbow body? What M Nan has described in your quote is just playing with aura. It is similar to using ectosplasm to become invisible and such. It has nothing to do with Rainbow Body. Perhaps that is why M Nan never achieved Rainbow Body? He seems to have died an old and bitter man. Why would anyone follow his teachings or give him any credence? Seems to me you are trolling. If you were the least bit sincere, you would learn about Rainbow Body yourself, instead of presenting a half-baked interpretation from an insincere unacomplished teacher. Hi Jetsun, Sometimes the Wiki isn't such a good source of all the information that is out there. The book called "Heart Essence of the Khandro" is about 30 women who achieved Rainbow body and went on to teach their students. They all had magical powers, and some lived to be 130 - 160 years old. http://www.amazon.com/Essence-Khandro-Yongdzin-Tenzin-Rinpoche/dp/8170262828 Further, the main woman, called Choza Bonmo even quit eating food, yet lived to be 160 yrs old. I don't know what you are talking about Alwaysoff, I'm talking about the war between the Buddhist and the Bon in the eighth century. This is why some Bon termas were created!!! and why you find erroneous Indian Buddhist terminology in Bon writings. For the rest of you doubters.. (not that you should believe what you read on a forum or in a book, but.. ) Here are the three types of Rainbow Bodies according to Bon: The text that is missing is "There are three main types of Rainbow Body. The highest level is called Tib 'ja' lus 'pho ba chen po' - the Rainbow Body of the Great Transfer. At this".. then continue reading the notes on the copied page.. Does anyone think that Yongdzin Lopon Tenzin Namdak was lying?

Alwaysoff, According to "Masters of the Zhang Zhung Nyengyud - Namdak - page 42", you are not ready to become a teacher unless you attain rainbow body: So the question remains, if CN Norbu is teaching Dzogchen and if his lineage were Bon, that would imply that the CN Norbu had achieved Buddhahood or Rainbow Body. Thus, the question remains: "Why would someone who achieved Buddhahood or Rainbow Body need to drink alcohol?" Mother rigpa, the Natural State, the Great Perfection is such a wonderful state; it is filled with bliss, love, joy, a wonderful silence and the realization that you are all things. How does that even come close to drinking a beer? And then again, who believes your nit picky terms are even accurate? During the times when the Buddhists attacked the Bon, part of the way that the Bon preserved their teachings was by changing the terminology in written doctrines to Hindu Buddhist terms, to make the Bon teachings look like they were Buddhist teachings. From the same book: Probably accounts for the fact that you belive that rigpa is sanskrit "vidya" 'knowledge'. That coud really mess up your understanding, couldn't it? But yes, that whole book treats the Nature (or Natural State) as a noun and says to remain in the Natural State or Nature". For example, here is one of the many references: And you know, you keep talking about how tantra is a superior vehicle. Well, in "Masters of the Zhang Zhung Nyengyud" they mention that by remaining in the Natural State, one can achieve final Buddhahood in one lifetime. Not so for Tantra:

Hi Pero, You say "Basically if you're mindful you'll notice when it's time to stop drinking." That is not what is going down there. CN Norbu is implying that if he is in the state of 'awareness' his body will not get drunk, his stomach will not be hurt and he can drink as much as he'd like, just like Virupa. Yet CN Norbu claims that he is not enlightened, therefore, he is not in "The Natural State" 24 hours a day. I remember Jax telling a story about how he and CN Norbu were having a beer and discussing how to present teachings to the masses.. That struck me as strange. Norbu drinks wine (and beer with Jax). I saw him do that in the movie "My Reincarnation". I know there are some Tibetan Gurus who preach "Crazy Wisdom", like Chogyam Trungpa (cocaine and alcohol). And then there is Ösel Tendzin who transmitted aids to students. Virupa was a realized being (to a great degree). I don't think CN Norbu is, otherwise he would have seen the effects from putting such detrimental statements in his book. He is influencing practitioners and sending the wrong message to the general public. The arrogant thought that being a free man entitles one to drink, even as a Dzogchen practitioner is sending the wrong message, don't you think? How many Dzogchen masters permit their students/disciples to drink? But, you force me to do some typing now. Here is what Lopon Tenzin Namdak wrote about this issue. From "Master of the Zhang Zhung Nyengyud - Pith Instructions from the Experiential Transmission of Bonpo Dzogchen - Yongdzin Lopon Tenzin Namdak. TI Hey Alwaysoff, Your hero Malcolm apparently has some opinions about your opinions.. http://www.vajracakra.com/viewtopic.php?f=57&t=1086&p=12242&hilit=alwayson#p12242 So this must be one of those times, with a comment that is calling Allah and Yahweh hungry ghosts, that you are right off. Not on.

I thought I'd mention. The only part of "The Mirror" that I do not enjoy is the very last part in the commentary. There, Norbu explains that if one is mindful, he/she can drink as much alcohol as they want and not get drunk. From "The Mirror" Namkhai Norbu, Translated from Tibetan into Italian and edited by Adriano Clemente. Why would any realized being want to drink wine or be a slave to hedonistic pleasures? Here, Norbu is telling us that if "we have a similar capacity ... we can drink as much as we like"? Does he truly believe that people want to be enlightened so that they can get drunk? Buddha taught that we can become free from suffering by becoming free from desires. It seems Norbu is saying that we become enlightened so that we can fulfill our desires. Kind of a contradiction, and certainly a bad example to the rest of the mere mortals. Perhaps I will throw the book out.