Tibetan_Ice

Yes, but there is also the emotional state of mind which you do not grasp and simply let dissolve. I think you are confusing the bliss of the samadhi of the one taste, or the enjoyment of samboghakaya with a common emotion. Have you never read about THE GREAT BLISS? Is not the primordial state blissful? Do you think that that bliss is just an impure emotion? I don't like quoting C N Norbu because his translators leave me suspect, but, this is from the Supreme Source. -Norbu From The Practice of Dzogchen - John Myrdhin Reynolds: Are you saying that the bliss referred to here is just an emotion being grasped? I think that is not the case.

Sorry, I don't understand your statement. What thesis? Please clarify...

Rigpa knows without the conceptual mind, prior to mind. Emotions are part of the conceptual mind. Treat them like thoughts with much more energy in them. You can determine that when emotions dissolve back into rigpa. There is relative bliss, emotions, bodhicitta and then there are the absolute counterparts. Guess which ones I am talking about.. Think about that...or rather, don't think about that at all..

In the moment before your mind has time to grasp what a sense consciousness is relaying lies a fresh moment or flash of rigpa. With practice, a little bodhicitta and mindfulness you can make those moments stretch out and last longer and longer. Bit by bit, a gradual approach, you will succeed.

From Ponlop Rinpoche's book called "Penetrating Wisdom - the Aspiration of Samantrabhadra": (Bolding is mine)

Answer me this... Why do you think they call the samboghakaya the "enjoyment body of great bliss"?

You are certainly entitled to your own opinions based on your intellectual understanding and experiences, as I am entitled to mine. Don't take anyone's word for anything, find out for yourself!

Well, I never said that "primordially pure innate self-awareness" has a gradation. I said rigpa has a gradation.. I would never call rigpa "primordially pure innate self-awareness" because that is an oxymoron isn't it? Rigpa is empty so there is no self to be aware of. Rigpa is aware of rigpa but rigpa is not a self. Once you have an experience of full blown rigpa you will realize that there is a gradation. Rigpa mixed with many thoughts is hard to recognize. Rigpa with a few thoughts is getting easier. Full blown rigpa is shiny, luminescent, clear, loving, blissful timeless and spacious. If rigpa is like space, like the little space in your head and it can expand, then that expansion is a form of gradient. The pool of rigpa in the heart, when it gushes out of the eyes like a firehouse is higher up the gradient scale. You can see experience as what evolves and that is fine. I see it the other way. The text says itself that it is a direct introduction. I guess it is only for the adepts.. It is the direct introduction to the three kayas. [

Well I can't resist. If you look at the way the term "rigpa " is used in these next excellent quotes, one sees that there are varying gradations of rigpa, like in the heart and the Kati channel. One also sees that the visions which arise through the Kati channel from the heart are facilitated by the doorways of the eyes. Has nothing to do with gazing at sunlight as Wells and Jax would have you believe. From the same book, THE PRACTICE OF DZOGCHEN IN THE ZHANG·ZHUNG TRADITION OF TIBET: There you go. Direct Introduction. The visions, which are seen, is Buddhahood becoming visibly manifest.

I think it is deceptive to use the word "self". It is also deceptive to say that "every sort of consciousness or awareness is an awareness of self"From THE PRACTICE OF DZOGCHEN IN THE ZHANG·ZHUNG TRADITION OF TIBET Translations from the Bonpo Dzogchen Practice Manual: The Gyalwa Chaktri of Druchen Gyalwa Yungdrung, and The Seven-fold Cycle of the Clear Light The Dark Retreat Practice from The Zhang-zhung Nyan-gyud Translated with Commentaries and Notes by John Myrdhin Reynolds

Jeff and Ralis, If there are no degrees of Rigpa then why is there a distinction between son clear light and mother clear light?

Is rigpa "consciousness? It is my understanding that rigpa is not consciousness because I have had experiences where I was aware but unconscious (like watching myself sleep). Further, if rigpa is beyond mind (I do not mean the nature of mind here) then consciousness, which is always conscious of something and always has a subject and object, is dualistic. Rigpa is not dualistic. Therefore, Peterson's interpretation is faulty. From Jax's book The Natural Bliss of Being: Bolding is mine.. So, Peterson is calling perfect awareness "consciousness" and saying that consciousness is rigpa. The other thing I noticed about Peterson's rendition of the term "rigpa" was discovered by accident. Again, from the same book, Peterson quotes Ponlop Rinpoche: Since there was no reference (footnote indicating he source of the quote) I did a search and found the text. Here it is, from https://www.amazon.com/Penetrating-Wisdom-Samantabhadra-Dzogchen-Ponlop/dp/1590304160 The first thing I noticed is that there is no "(Knowing Awarenss)" text in Ponlop's original text. Peterson has added his own text to the author's original text thus deceiving the reader to believe that Ponlop is saying that rigpa is "knowing awareness"! Again, I found the exact same text on the net and there there is no (Knowing Awarenss)" text at the end of the sentence "Our mind is primordially in the state of rigpa. " See: http://www.dailyom.com/library/000/003/000003464.html Again, Ponlop never wrote the bolded text in his original source: "Our mind is primordially in the state of Rigpa (Knowing Awareness). " At this point I can only conclude that Peterson misrepresents quotes from original authors and adds his own edits into those quotes. Big loss of credibility here.

I came upon this today, and I have to say that this a most interesting interview, especially around 1:54:00 and later when Daniel starts talking about stream entry and his levels of attainment.

Lively interview with Daniel Ingram https://soundcloud.com/post-traditional-buddhism/73-imperfect-buddha-podcast-super-groovy-daniel-ingram-interview

You know, I have better things to do than moderate threads. It is too bad the people here can't show each other common respect and courtesy. Somewhere in the path to enlightenment there is the wish that everyone become enlightened. Why don't we work on that instead?

The faeries appeared out of nowhere and was during a "focusing on the star above the head" meditation. The rainbow spheres with people inside was during thogal practice. One advantage of not trying to manipulate anything is that you know the difference between creating thought forms in the astral planes and seeing what arises unprovoked or fabricated. You say you have had all kinds of teachings and experiences including thogal, yet you ask questions like that...

The thread that you changed the title to? This one? http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/41273-dzogchen-thogal-a-buddhist-creative-adaptation-of-a-daoist-technique/ I read the OP several times and decided that it was nonsensical, speculative, inaccurate and lacked proper references. Further, knowing Jax's history and his propensity to gloss over salient points and mix absolute and relative terminology, which was again verified in this text, I read it with a whole salt shaker of salt. For example, the Speculative text says (I am Bolding the salient point) The topic is about thogal, not trekchod. "Break Through" refers to trekchod, not thogal. Thogal is the "leap over". Bull. There is rigpa throughout the body and the biggest pool is in the heart area. Yes, it is son rigpa if separate from mother rigpa..However, you cultivate Shen but you don't cultivate rigpa. The contents of that quote does not have any references. If you look for "thigle tongpa dronma" on Google, you will not find it. I cannot find it (or anything close) in any of my books on the lamps of Dzogchen, from JLA or Namdak. No way to verify what is being said. Again, no reference, no mention of where the statements come from. Are we just supposed to take Jax's speculation unexamined? As far as I know, most if not all books on Dzogchen declare that the "nature of mind" has no location. From "Natural Perfection - Longchenpa's Radical Dzogchen: That means that the nature of mind has no location. Further, I did comment on that topic... http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/41273-dzogchen-thogal-a-buddhist-creative-adaptation-of-a-daoist-technique/?p=693103 If you want to just believe anything that some writes on a forum or Facebook page, that is your prerogative. But if you can't verify and support what is being presented yourself by doing the research and practices, time to leave it aside.

Show me where the Mao-Shan claim to have brought thogal to Buddhism. By the way, the Red Phoenix (Kunlun) is from the Mao-Shan according to Max.

Sorry, not interested in what some scholar nonpractitioners wrote.The practice of thogal is very simple. It needs no Buddhist dogma to support it. I don't even think that one should call Dzogchen Buddhist. If you manipulate anything you do not end up "leaping over". If you have not mastered rigpa, there is no thogal. Dudjom Lingpa had 13 of his students achieve rainbow body, if it works, it works. From the Nangjang (Bolding is mine) You can replace "awareness" with "rigpa"... So, if you are playing with and manipulating the five lights, it is from the state of ignorance, nonrecognition of rigpa.

This is not thogal. There is no volition in thogal. If you try to do something and manipulate light or the breaths etc, you are grasping. In thogal you do not grasp. First you enter the natural state and then you let it unravel all on its own. Manifesting deities on the celestial spheres is just creating astral entities. That quote proves nothing.

Allthough like Apech I believe in the freedom of expression, if this thread devolves into more insults and off topic remarks, I will moderate it.

I'm speaking from my experience here.

Guess what? Reality is a thogal vision.

Someone whom needs to write walls of text to explain rigpa is doing so for the benefit of those whom have trouble grasping the concept (or lack of concept). I think Surya Das and Nyoshul Khenpo nailed it. Perhaps you are upset by the statements of Mipham, in that text, when he says it has nothing to do with "capacity", inferior or otherwise...

Wells, Where do you think the thogal visions come from? They come from the large pool of rigpa in the heart. The Kati is a pipeline to that large pool of rigpa. The dharmakaya, the clear light, rigpa manifest all visions. Whatever you grasp becomes your relative reality. How is that for "simple"?