Tibetan_Ice

Twisting again Alwaysoff? Your quote is an attempt at intellectualizing emptiness, or the role of conglomerates/skandas, is a task that always falls short to pandits. Ramana's practice, which is very similar to Nisargadatta's abiding in the I AM is a bonafied practice, not some philosophic concatenation. Read it for yourself: http://bhagavan-ramana.org/selfenquirypractice.html Further, Ramana's explanation that as the ego dissolves into the heart centre is in keeping with the secret Kati Channel from the heart to the eyes. http://sri-ramana-maharshi.blogspot.ca/2008/04/role-of-heart-centre-in-self.html You can catch glimpses at the heart center through the kati channel. You can experience true rigpa. And if you look backwards through the eyes, you will see a sea of colors and light. But your kati channel has to be clear. This "psychic liquid light" which pushes out through the eyes is found all over the body in small quantities. But, there is the largest pool which resides in the heart space. This psychic liquid light is immense love/joy/bliss and has the feeling of being, the feeling of "I AM", the feeling that you "are everything". Both Nisargadatta and Ramana point to that. Their methods point to that. Just focus on the feeling of "I AM". Who am I? Here is an interesting little video that someone pointed out to me. Have a look. While I don't agree with his final result, his path is interesting. Eventually you will see that there is a part in the path where there is a light in a prism, frozen and shining. The five Bon lights.. ? TI

Alwaysoff, Perhaps you and your hero "Malcolm" are plagued by the same hungry ghosts? Anger feeders perhaps? Elitist scholarly digesters of banal human emotions? Troll juice? CAUTION: DO NO FEED THE HUNGRY GHOSTS!

Hi Pero, More on the "without a teacher aspect". http://buddhahoodnava.blogspot.ca/ Well, for your second comment, I would suggest that if all "Buddhist teachings lead to the same goal" then Zen Buddhism and Theravada Buddhism (jhanas etc) must least to the same goal too. And all the other derivatives of the Buddhist lineage.. Malcolm clearly states that the slightest difference in understanding leads to an entirely different mountain top. I'd quote him but his site is down. TI

Well Bon has their termas too. Bon is a separate tradition from Buddhism. Do you recall when the Buddhists attacked the Bon? The Bon hid their manuscripts and spiritual libraries. Termas.. National Geographic's 'Secrets of Shangri-La: Quest for Sacred Caves' http://www.pbs.org/programs/secrets-shangri-la/ Yeah right. All is mind except when you see images arise from the substrate.. Give me one example, one reference. You say it is documented very clearly by western people.. well prove it.

Hi Pero Thank you for the book suggestion: "The practice of Dzogchen". It looks pretty good. Unfortunately, or fortunately (depending on which way you look at it), I have received four books by Lopon Tenzin Namdak Rinpoche today and I can hardly wait to read them. One, called "Heart Essence of the Khandro" is about "thirty signs and meanings from women lineage-holders" !!! I was browsing one ot Namdak's books and I came accross a part where he says that if the body does not dissolve completely, it means that there are still parts of consciousness clinging to the mind.. And, he says that sometimes, a rainbow body can manifest as a powerful ghost.. Interesting stuff. Samyaksambuddha: The thing about samyaksambuddha is, according to "The Practice of Dzogchen", is that this type of attainment, without a teacher etc is that it is something that arises upon death so it is not a complete definition of the 'goal of Dzogchen'. I think the goal of Dzogchen is to become fully enlightened before death (but I guess I'd take that one too if that is the case). Thanks for your comments. TI Alwaysoff, I am not changing the subject. These traditions all have their own version of rainbow body/light body/diamond body etc.. You know you can find just about anything in books. Here, it actually says that all Buddhist training leads to the same goal. But that is not what your hero, Lopon Malcolm says.. In fact, he is calling realized gurus from other traditions liars.. http://www.vajracakra.com/viewtopic.php?f=57&t=1086&start=130 Pretty strong stuff, calling Papaji and Gangaji liars.. And I guess Malcolm is not aware that Ramana is still visiting people via the astral planes... Ramana is truly beyond space and time.. Perhaps one day when Malcolm evolves a little more he too will gain access to the astral planes and un-dead higher beings. TI

Ok. Let's look at "Buddhahood Without Meditation". The definition of zhi is this: [zhi : the ground (of being); the fundamentally uncontrived nature of being; the Great Perfection teachings state that this ground is already endowed with all qualities of enlightened being, perfect and complete without having to be sought or brought into being deliberately; the process of the spiritual path is one of making the ground evident as the fruition, rather than fundamentally altering it in any way (basis (BM); Being (FRC); ground-basis (JN, PC); base, foundation (SL). Then there is Malcolm's statement: Essentially, what Malcolm did was take a well-known expression and switch the words "existence" with "being". Here is the phrase: link: http://www.berzinarchives.com/web/en/archives/advanced/dzogchen/basic_points/major_facets_dzogchen.html If there is one Dzogchen book that actually has the term 'being' in it instead of 'existence' in that phrase, I would sure like to know what book that would be. Typically, these statements refer to appearances, not being.

Do you have a book or reference to the bodies that are acheived in Dzogchen? Trikayas? Did you mean "immortality" (not immorality) Raja Yoga is not new age bullshit. http://www.himalayanacademy.com/view/merging-with-siva

From "Mergin with Shiva": When nirvi kalpa samadhi has been practiced daily for many, many years—according to the classical yoga teachings, for twelve years—and the golden body has been built, the ku∫∂alini force coils itself in the sahasrara chakra of the yogi, at the top of the head. This is known as the manas chakra, located about where the hairline begins at the forehead. This chakra eventually becomes the muladhara chakra, or the memory-pattern chakra, of the golden body. 458 MERGING WITH IIVA The manas chakra is fully activated when the golden body is fully unfolded. This is known in Hindu and Egyptian mystic schools as the golden body of light, for it registers in the minds of those who look upon it, to their soul body, as a golden ball of light or a golden body. ...\ The golden body, svar∫asarira, is a body made of golden light. After many experiences of Parasiva, it gradually descends from the seven chakras above the sahasrara into the ajna chakra, which then becomes the soul’s muladhara, then down into the vi suddha chakra, which then becomes its muladhara, and then down into the anahata, which then becomes its muladhara. ¶All seven chakras above the sahasrara slowly come down and down and down until the entire astral body is psychically seen, by mystics who have this sight, as a golden body. The astral body slowly, slowly, slowly dissolves into the golden body. That is what I have seen happen. That is what our parampara and our sampradaya know from ex per ience. Experience is the only true knowing—a knowing that can be verified in books, through others who have the same knowing, but a knowing that no others know who have not had the same experience. To them it is only a concept, a nice one maybe, but just a concept or written off as an opinion. ¶When the gold en body fully enters the physical, having taken over the astral, the knowing that is known comes unbidden. It is beyond reason but does not conflict with it. It is a living scripture but does not conflict with those written by seers of the past who have seen and their records have become scripture. So great is the Sanatana Dhar ma that it de fies all who doubt it, all who disdain it, all who disregard it, all who de grade it, with personal realization of its Truth. ¶This golden body, which begins to build into a golden body after the experience of nirvi kalpa sama dhi, is connected to the sahasrara chakra. In other words, the sahasrara chakra is the home base in the physical body for the golden body. There are twelve basic unfoldments to this chakra as the golden body grows. When the realized sannyasin travels in high states of contemplation, he moves freely in his golden body and can help and serve mankind. Over time, he gains a conscious control of the sahasrara chakra as a force center which propels him into inner space. ¶It is this golden body, as it refines and refines and refines itself within the Iivaloka after moksha, that finally merges with Iiva like a cup of water being poured into the ocean. That same water can never be found and put back into the cup. This truly is svar∫asarira visvagrasa, the final, final, final merging with Shiva.

Alwaysoff, In Kriya Yoga, it is called the Golden body. In Kunlun, it is called the diamond body. Yes, characteristic of rainbow body is one of these three: After death the body shrinks, after death the body vanishes leaves hair and nail, or before death, the rainbow body is realized and permits the practitioner to manifest as a light form (or many) at any time or place. However, what makes you think that this phenomenon only applies to Dzogchen? Perhaps in other parts of the world they embalm the body therefore there is little chance of observing the state of the body after it dies. But the main functionality of manifesting a light body while still alive is something that adepts/gurus/sages (yes even Ramana) can do and it is well documented too.

http://www.ligmincha.org/en/bon-buddhism/resources/glossary-of-bon-terms.html kunzhi (tib: kun gzhi) In Bon, the kunzhi is the base of all that exists, including the individual. The kunzhi is the unity of emptiness and clarity; of the absolute open indeterminacy of ultimate reality and the unceasing display of appearance and awareness. The kunzhi is the base or ground of being.

I think you are bullshitting me. At least I quote my sources instead of making them up like you. http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Dharmakaya Samyaksambuddha: "Samyaksambuddhas (Pali: Sammasambuddha) gain Nirvana by their own efforts, and discover the Dhamma without having a teacher to point it out." The definition of "by their own efforts" means "NO TEACHER", "NO TRANSMISSION", "NO INSTRUCTIONS". This is not Dzogchen. Dzogchen has transmissions, teachers, practices like Togal and Trecko, etc.. Your sentence does not make sense. And, by your faulty logic, anyone whom arives at the result of Dzogchen would be "buddhadharma", therefore Ramana would be too, and all the rest of the Zen, Tao, Vendanta etc realized practitioners. Perhaps you should start using the wiki too. At least you'd have half a chance at finding something that made sense.

Derailing topics again?

I see you become an expert (or think you have) on Tibetan Ice's posting behaviours. Yes, I am mocking you. I am challenging you. Instead of attacking the messenger (I really don't care about your opinion of me), why don't you address the questions instead? Your statements in this thread imply that you know more about "Heaven and rebirth" than the person you were looking down at. Well, prove it to me.

Why are you talking about "Buddhism" here? There is no Buddhism in pure Dzogchen. How can you say that "Dzogchen is also buddhadharma"? Are you saying that in Dzogchen there is no ontological basis? That's what Malcolm is saying. Well, perhaps you could explain the following ontological dissertation of Dzogchen ground... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground_of_Being_(Dzogchen) Further, in Dzogchen, the "ground of being" is the dharmakaya, is it not? So if Ramana has alluded to the dharmakaya, why is that so bad? Just because he did not use the right term?

Do you promise to let us know what he says?

You know, CT, I'm having a little bit of trouble trying to digest your statements here. I thought you were buddhist? You fly the buddhist avatar.. Are you an expert on Heaven? I don't think you are quite trolling, but your post is filled with dichotomy, especially since you are willing to put down others who use the term "Heaven", yet you don't seem to understand your own belief system (or missing parts). Or perhaps your version of Buddhism does not include the Pure Lands? Perhaps you could explain to us the "Pure Lands", Amitabha, and the idea that the Pure Lands are the abodes of Buddhas and Bodhisatvas. Is not becoming a Buddha the end of rebirth? And then, if one does become a Buddha, wouldn't he/she then be able to take up residence in a Pure Land and remain there if they so desired? How could you postulate such a thought? Pure Lands? Sounds like you have never been there before. What goes to one of the Pure Lands? Death?

The practice of rushan, is it this? : Also, Malcolm said this: http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=100&t=6459&hilit=semde+in+drag So how can your third step be 'only the starting point' in Dzogchen according to Malcolm? ?

For an educated person, you need a lesson in English. A sentence begins with a capital letter and ends in a period. You cannot take parts of sentences and forget about the rest, because doing so is taking it out of context. Context is very important in a sentence. Read the last part of Malcolm's sentence.. Here it is again: In other words, the last part of the sentence is saying "if you do not have stable shamatha just resting is just wasting your time." He did not say, as you conveniently cut out the word "just", "If you have not recognized the nature of the mind, resting the mind is just shamatha". Your sentence diminishes the emphasis of the sentence to in fact denigrate and reduce the term 'shamatha'. There is quite a difference between 'just resting is just shamatha' and "resting the mind is just shamatha". No charge for the English lesson.. Then, you say " resting in that knowledge is trekcho". How does one 'rest in knowledge'? Bad choice of words. You rest in the Natural State. But if you haven't achieved shamatha, good luck with that. Your mind will come bouncing back and literally drag you away from the Natural State. STABILITY!!! From Practices from the Zhang-Zhung Nyan Gyud as transmitted orally by Lopon Tenzin Namdak However, being that this quote is from the Bon tradition, the terminology is somewhat different. But there you have it. Pure Bon Dzogchen practice. I have been in the "Natural State" five times now, without transmission and without a guru. I am one of the lucky ones, or perhaps I worked real hard all my life to achieve it. Now I am working on stabilizing it. Here is some more from Lopon Tenzin Namdak (who I am eternally grateful for, for pointing out that the state that I have accomplished is in fact the "Natural State".) : Notice that he too used the term "śamatha". Some more from Lopon Tenzin Namdak:

I did not say it was a prerequisite but that Malcolm recognizes shamatha as being important. And yes I read the whole thread. Did you?

Alwaysoff, if you care so much about Malcolm, and what he says (yet you say you don't care about shamatha), why not look at what Malcolm said about shamatha: http://www.vajracakra.com/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=702&start=80

Hi RV. Actually, I lied. Jesus is not the ultimate Dzogchen master, he is far beyond that. But I'm sure that if he felt the need he could become one in the blink of an eye. Case in point. Jeff said: "Was also a Dzogchen master" and I think you took his statement literally, and I think he meant that literally too. My statement is present tense. Yes, Jesus is alive and well and I "talk" to him every day. He is always there. You too can have a personal relationship with him if you would only ask. And then you wouldn't refer to him in the past tense like Jeff did. My motivation for posting in this thread? I just couldn't take it any more. I had to say something. When you let people spout ridiculous claims like "the Holy Spirit is kundalini", or the mishmash of crap that he has posted about Christian "transmission" and you can do something about it, I tend to act rather than bury my head in the sand. Is that short enough? TI

IW Kundalini is not the Holy Spirit. I have experienced both. I know the difference. The Holy Spirit is a bright ball of light with wings that shoots beams onto people's heads. After the annointing, the person has a light form on the top of the head which resembles two wings or a large mustache. When the beam of light hits, you hear a popping sound. Then it feels like some golden honey is oozing down inside your skull, slowly moving. The experience is ecstatic, pure and heavenly. Kundalini lies at the base of the spine. It is sexual energy, very powerful and can render your body into a transparent electric field which burns. It is dangerous and can easily make you lose your mind. The Holy Spirit would never do that to you. This thread's topic is "transmission in christian mysticism". So what are Buddhist/Bon writings being used to explain "transmissions in Christian Mysticism? Why Jeff would then quote and refer to Bon teachings about Togal is beyond me. Well, maybe it isn't, because of Jeff's propensity is to borrow terminology from one discipline and make a hodge podge, not respecting the history or culture of the concepts. By pulling the terminology out of context, it only serves to confuse, confuscate and it makes a mess. Further, his original statements reflect his lack of understanding, and he does not give any references. He sites no texts, or links to what he has conjured up. Ok, let's take a look: The Christian/Catholic church does not use the term "transmission". They call it sacrements. And, any priest can perform sacrements. A priest is not a master nor an adept. Often called a "mind transmission"? How often? Where is the proof? Where does it say that it is at the 'astral' level? The astral level is very slow compared to the causal level, or the mental level. And why not at the etheric level? Crap.. Why does the mind need to translate the astral transmission? Aside from the fact that mind/awareness is way faster than astral, and mind to mind transmissions do not use the astral, astral travel is something we all do every night, naturally. "and this energy is translated by the mind into some sort of vision (or healing)." Nonsense. You can mold the astral any way you want and it will not affect the material plane. One does not need an open heart to gain blessings from saints or divine beings. Many angels and saints help people in need, torn lonely, sad people. Suicidal people. People whose hearts are closed and hardened. It has nothing to do with the person's ability to receive, their clarity etc. Again, where are references to the Christain writings that say these preposturous misnomers? Jeff just makes it up as he goes based on what he has heard or read in the past. And, I notice that your discovery of Benjamin Cremes has some significance for you. If you have to go looking to define "transmission" and then have to take the word of someone who erroneously channels "Maitreya", can't predict accurately when his return to earth was supposed to be, then perhaps you are in good company with Jeff. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benjamin_Creme Not credible, in my opinion.

Hi Jeff, What you are saying is mostly a big load of bullshit. You have no idea what you are talking about, have no experience in it and are misleading most everyone here. The fact is that they don't know you well enough to understand that you are mostly making most of this up, mixing up terms and concepts and filling this thread with, well, just a bunch of bullshit. You have no references, nor any other supporting bodies of writings in your terminology that you can present. You probably still don't do any practices and probably never will. Instead, you seem to spend most of your time spouting these delusional fabrications, which are a blend of the various traditions which you have melted together into a hodge podge of alphabet soup. And, I should warn you. If you keep calling the Holy Spirit "Kundalini", eventually the Holy Spirit will consider it a great insult and you will be rewarded for your slander. Wise up. TI

I Love Eckart Tolle. I have most of his books, DVD's, CD's and podcasts. I love his sense of humor, his clarity, wisdom and calm. I must admit, Eckart does not have a regimented practice routine and it was hard to find something to practice, but his book "Practicing the Power of Now" has very powerful practices which I think he 'borrowed' from ... Buddhism.. This next practice is one which I practiced for an hour a day for two months a few years ago. Towards the end I had to stop because I would go to bed at night and although my body went to sleep, my awareness remained alert throughout the night. I got tired of watching myself sleep, listening to myself snore, and watching the cloud of the mind have dreams. I had become a 'point of view', separate from the world of forms.. This practice even brought on huge kundalini eruptions by practicing samadhi on the feeling of the inner body.. I would compare it to Goenka's practices as described in "The Discourse Summaries".. The second practice that Eckhart mentions is also very powerful practice, and it is similar to what the Dzogchen practitioners refer to as 'fresh awareness'. It is the awareness that occurs when you first see an object, before the conceptual mind has time to grasp it, before the conceptual mind applies its labels.. This type of awareness is clean, clear, crisp and pure. The practice consists of moving your line of sight every split second or so so that you are looking at a different scene every split second. The mind has no time to label or grasp. Once I did this practice as I walked in the woods, shifting focus every 1/2 second. Well, about 20 minutes after stopping the practice, I suddenly found myself looking at the outer world like it was a dream. My consciousness had receeded into an area about 5 feet behind the body and it felt like I was sleep walking or something.. Personally, I found his talks about the pain body a bit of a chore as I prefer practices, not self-psychology, but I still rate Eckart Tolle as someone worth listening to. I am grateful that Eckhart took the time to share his knowledge with the rest of the world. TI