Tibetan_Ice

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Hi Konchog The first time I heard of this was in a meditation of the Diamond Way Buddhists.. It was a guided meditation at a seminar. I also found this on it: http://buddha.nimmersoft.dk/guruyogameditation.htm But, I also found this technique which uses the white, red and blue in a Dzogchen book.. TI

Hi Stephos, Did you receive your transmissions in person or over the web/skype? TI

<snip> The link that you pasted to vajracakra is for members only. I have no intention of joining because they require your personal email address in order to join. I see they removed the requirement that you divulge your personal name, but still, identity is something to keep secret and share only with people I trust. Perhaps if they gave me their personal email addresses, I might consider it. You obviously did not read the cut and pastes that I put in this thread at the beginning. Nor does it seem that you have a practical experience of clear light. For, if you had, you wouldn't have cut-and-pasted that horrendous quote by Mingyur Rinpoche, and the rest of your quotes. First off, the luminosity of Sambogakaya and the Dharmakaya are inseperable. Mingyur is correct in stating that the mind does not create "some kind of light". The luminescence is self-rising, from the dharmadatu, and from the substrate consciousness. Secondly, Vividness, Clarity, brilliance, illumination are not metaphors for clear light as Mingyur suggests. Well, kind of but you cannot separate the knowing part from the illumination part. In order to know, it must be 'seen'. All that is knowable is illuminated. Self luminous. You should have known this had you closely examined your thoughts and traced them back to the knower. The part that grasps can only grasp onto something that is seen. At that super fine level of examination, all thoughts/forms/manifestions are self-luminous. If Clarity is a metaphor for Knowing then Rainbow Body would never be seen. If illumination is a metaphor for Knowing then thoughts would never appear if they weren't luminescent. Knowing and illumination are the same. They are light, a manifestation of the innate clear light. And, then, his poor example of an ignorant student who thinks that clear light is white light and doesn't realize that clear light can manifest as white light does indeed show the dangers or stupidity of not understanding the relationship between clear light and the five impure lights of samsara. I cannot believe that Mingyur is calling the luminescence of the sambhogakaya a simple metaphor. I prefer this definition: Next you say: Vidya doesn't appear to be related to the 5 lights which manifest as either pure or impure.. Instead, it refers to the five skhandas.. Further, you say that in Dzogchen, the five lights are undifferentiated. ? Here is what Tenzin Wangyal says about it: If the five lights are undifferentiated, what then is Tenzin talking about? If Dzogchen produces the rainbow body, and Tenzin is saying that the five lights dissolve back into "light", why are you not getting this? Light is not a metaphor. Futher, I understand that in the strictest sense, the term "Clarity" refers to the knowing aspect of emptiness, but that knowing has a "Vivid" essence, which can be 'seen'. Here is one reference to someone who uses the term "Clarity" in the strictest sense, but then differentiates the terms by explaining "Vividness". TI

Hi WTL, There is a channel from the heart to the eyes, it is called the Secret Kati channel. It is also known as the part of the third and fourth lamps. Through the channel from the heart to the eyes, not only can you view your own pure pristeen awareness as it 'comes out', but it can be used to see into the distance (aka as the lasso). It looks like crystal clear water and it bubbles forth like a mountain spring. This channel is activated by 'love' from the heart. My guess is that you love being out-doors and you are very good at your concentration. Here is some more on that topic: http://www.theopendoorway.org/thodgal.html So, if you ask me, you and Vortex are being successful at developing this channel. You must have good hearts! As for the "glitter" you mentioned, many people see them. If you gaze at the sky on a bright day with your back to the sun, you will see this tiny wee little balls of light darting around, They appear, move and disappear. They can glitter. They seem to be right in front of the eyes.. I do not know what they are. Some people say it is orgone energy. Some say it is prana or life force. It is easy to see these little balls of white light if you fix your gaze and concentrate on the area of sight just before your eyes, out of doors, when looking at the bright blue sky. Most people can see them if only they know how. Floaters, on the other hand, appear as dark little bubbles that slowly move when you fix your gaze. Usually floaters are nothing to be alarmed of. They are just accumulations of proteins in the fluid of the eyes. They will usually dissolve on their own after a few days. Oh, Charles Luk also discusses the heart to eyes channels in his book called "Taoist Yoga: Alchemy & Immortality" http://www.amazon.com/Taoist-Yoga-Immortality-Charles-Luk/dp/0877280673 Hope that helps. Good luck. TI

Hi Spotless, You missed it, and perhaps that is because you did not grasp the term "meditative equipoise" ? Here are the actual introductory paragraphs to that topic in the book, followed by the paragraph that you misunderstood. So, as you can see, the topic of that chapter is Shamatha, samadhi, or meditative quiessence. It is stilling the mind. I'm reluctant to discuss anything more with because you seem to be using the term "trance" as something to be mastered. In my vocabulary, "trance" is something to be avoided. Yes, the senses can shut down in trance states, but the senses also shut down in shamatha. (Sanskrit: Pratyahara - at a certain point, when the heart relaxes, the senses will shut off. ) I fail to see what your recount of a kundalini episode has to do with shamatha, for kundalini is not shamatha. Shamatha is stilling the mind, the winds. Kundalini is moving the winds; it is an energetic flow. The two are diametrically opposed. Further, Allan Wallace, the author of that book, was a Buddhist monk for 16 years, has a PHD in religious studies, was the interpretor for the Dalai Lama, has written several excellent books and regularily hosts Dozgchen and Shamatha retreats. He is fluent in Tibetan and has practised for over 40 years. I find it offensive that you regard his highly accurate description of samadhi as something that he does not understand, that he is a beginner. But then, perhaps you did not understand the term "meditative equipoise". TI

Hi Certain types of trance can lead to dementia. This is a very interesting excerpt about this subject. Consider the effects mentioned in it about experiences in sensory deprivation tanks. The concepts disccussed below do not bode well for TM and AYP's deep meditation..

Hi Stefos, You are right. I assumed that you had bent your neck in some way and were gazing upwards. But the purple and green lights are a dead giveaway. When you received the transmission from C N Norbu, did you experience anything? What was it like? Or are you now bound to secrecy, forever unable to share your experiences from such a reknown guru? TI

Hi Alwaysoff, Again you leave me with the task of clarifying your brutally pithy statements, realizing their context and then dismissing them as incorrect and totally misconstrued. Let's take your first statement. The 'thing' that does not arise nor pass is the primordial base of rigpa. All else arises and passes. Thoughts arise and pass, objects arise and pass, in fact everything including the world/universe arises and passes. The primordial base is that from which all phenomenon arise from and pass into. That is the only thing that is beyond arising and passing. You said: This statement, which is no doubt a support for dependant origination is not referring to the that which arises and passes from mother rigpa. The true meaning of that statement is that, because there is no intrinsic existence due to dependant origination, all that is derived or manifested from this lack of intrinsic existence is also non-existant. It is a top-down statment, and one which should not be taken out of context because, as you have used it here, it would make no sense to the common reader or the conceptual mind. On the conceptual level, we can clearly see that the world manifests, endures and then dissolves. This is the impermanence that most Buddhist manuals teach. If you wish to put your quotes in proper context, be my guest. From my point of view, we can examine the Clear Light without establish which Buddhist views related to dependant origination are 'superior'. As a matter of fact, we can dispense with this form of elitism as they are only candy for the conceptual mind and the ego. But what is your understanding of the "Clear Light"? (to get back to the topic in this thread) In another thread you said: http://thetaobums.com/topic/25981-dzogchen-and-daoism/?p=387903 Your belief is at odd with other respectible Bon/Dzogchen Teachers/practioners. It appears as though you've totally missed it. So, we see that the five lights do display as something other than just the pure lights. And, we also see that the five lights arise, and that they can be developed. Further, they are the source of both nirvana and samsara. And in this quote, we also see, from a different source, that the five lights manifest visions: If you wish to defend your statements, please quote viable references and support your statements with the scholarly standards taught in most colleges and universities, as you so often pretend to adhere to. TI

Hi Konchog If Malcom said " i have read (lopon malcolm) that clear light has nothing to do with seeing visions of light, " then he is wrong. Not only does clear light manifest into all things, the dharmakaya and the sambhogakaya are inseperable.. Maybe Malcom is a scholar and a tibetan doctor, but perhaps he isn't a guru or a practitioner.. Where exactly did he say that? And then answer this question.. why do you think that Guru Yoga starts with the practice of visualizing the Guru in perfect detail, then visualizing the red/white/blue light emanating from the Guru to you, and then dissolving the Guru into you? Why do you think that Max's Kunlun level 1 says to visualize yourself floating in a blue empty sky and then visualize, as you breathe in... and "make it real"? The reason is because everything emanates from the clear light. The clear light, when split into yellow, is the manifestation of solidity. Into red light, is the manifestion of fire.. Blue light, space.. etc.. the five lights. The reason for the visualizations is to start training in manifesting and dissolving the five lights. How else could you walk through solids, fly in the air, heat up the body etc? It is by realizing that we are creating the material plane through the mind, by manifesting the five lights/elements and by learning to play with them. TI

My God Stefos, you are just all over the place, aren't you? I did read some J Krishnamurti, and then I read some U G Krishnamurti ( a while ago), just so I didn't confuse the two.. I wondered who pee-ed in U G's cornflakes.. Instead of giving advice, I would be more interested in hearing about your regular practices (or non-practices) and experiences. Thanks for posting the auric sight experience in the occult thread. Although it was an elementary experience, the important part of it was that by resting your head on your hands and gazing upwards like you did, you tied into the secret kati channel from the heart to the head. The purple and green lights were part of that heart-consciousness manifestation. Here are some books I would recommend: 1 "Ground, Path, And Fruition: Teachings of Tsoknyi Rinpoche on Mind and Mind Essence" Tsoknyi Rinpoche; Paperback; $49.00 In Stock Sold by: Vajra Books 1 "Natural Perfection: Longchenpa's Radical Dzogchen" Rabjam, Longchen; Paperback; $12.21 In Stock Sold by: Amazon.com LLC 1 "A Practice Of Padmasambhava: Essential Instructions On The Path To Awakening" Gyaltsap, Sechen; Paperback; $15.63 In Stock Sold by: Amazon.com LLC 1 "Awakening The Luminous Mind: Tibetan Meditation for Inner Peace and Joy" Wangyal Rinpoche, Tenzin; Paperback; $10.17 In Stock Sold by: Amazon.com LLC 1 "Awakening the Sacred Body" Wangyal Rinpoche, Tenzin; Paperback; $13.57 In Stock Sold by: Amazon.com LLC 1 "Naked Awareness: Practical Instructions On The Union Of Mahamudra And Dzogchen" Karma Chagme; Paperback; $20.48 In Stock Sold by: Amazon.com LLC 1 "A Spacious Path To Freedom: Practical Instructions On The Union Of Mahamudra And Atiyoga" Chagme, Karma; Paperback; $14.31 In Stock Sold by: Amazon.com LLC TI

Hi Konchog The reason Tilopa hit Naropa in the face with his shoe was to 'break on through' to the other side, as Alan Wallace would put it. Zen beats you with a stick. Shatter that alaya.. But Tilopa sure put Naropa through hell, didn't he? Broken bones, torture, pain.. Or perhaps it was heaven.. http://www.karmapa.org/history/naropa_2.htm TI

Hi Jetsun, Thanks for your comments. Yes, there are many stories about Buddhists performing amazing feats.. I like the one about the Buddhist who painted a picture of a cow on the wall and then proceeded to milk it, producing real milk. ! Did you ever notice that the advanced Dzogchen preliminary practises like trecko and thogal, which are also called the Leap-over, or jumping through, or the fastest methods (if one cannot realize the true nature of mind directly) are very similar to third eye meditations, kriya yoga/pranayama and other 'standard' hindu practices? TI

Hi Rainbowvein Well, it's a little off topic, but, I have a long history of spiritual practices.. for what it is worth. http://thetaobums.com/topic/26312-some-vedanta-traps-ive-come-across/?p=395385 Here I describe an experience of clear light: http://thetaobums.com/topic/25700-introduction-to-dzogchen-retreat-with-b-alan-wallace/?p=384118 TI ps.. Love your name..

Hi Stefos Well hopefully this isn't an argument.. Konchog believes that you can't "illuminate the truth in words, writing.." Perhaps scholars or pandits can't.. I say you can. If an enlightened being writes words down, there is a characteristic vibratory signature that can be dectected. But you have to be resonating at the same level or at least a high enough level in order to detect it. Have you ever heard the expression, it takes someone with heart to recognize someone else with heart? Heck, you don't even have to write it down in words. Just look at the footprints left in rock by Marpa.. Isn't that capturing the truth right there? http://www.kagyu.org/kagyulineage/lineage/kag05.php But, I was going to ask you. Where exactly did you write about your clairvoyant vision in the Occult section? TI

Ok. Let's discuss this here: http://thetaobums.com/topic/27308-natural-perfection-longchenpas-radical-dzogchen-clear-light/ TI

Seth, The soul is baby clear light. That which is reincarnated. Feeling is bodhicitta, the dweller in the heart, the main component of compassion and Bhuddism.

Hi Konchog Yes, you are right. The rest of the book is tough slugging, although it is stretching my vocabulary. "Naked Awareness" is a much better book. Sounds like Lama Glenn Mullin has taken the overly simple definition of rigpa to mean "awareness". That's why I appreciate Dowman's statement that " Mere “awareness” is therefore inadequate". I think neo-advaitans make the same type of mistake. The sambhogakaya is luminious and inseperable from the dharmakaya (and nirmanakaya), therefore, one would expect light to be intrinsic to any definition. You know, just because someone has numerous titles, degrees or what not does not make every word that comes out of their mouths truth. Truth is where you find it, regardless of source. I'm sure Glenn Mullin has the correct architecture, it is just that his terminology is probably reflecting a cultural acclimatization. Yes, perhaps kundalini, according to these definitions.. Sure sounds like it, the bright light and bliss part anyway and the dissolving into the central channel... but wait, there is much to a Buddhist description of dissolving winds into the central channel... Anyway, you should read the "Leap Over" in Naked Awareness. For example, from Naked Awareness it again speaks of the bliss and light.. TI

Hi Konchog As you have said, if "there is no authoritative text or teaching that is the Buddha's words" then how can believe your other statement that "Nagarjuna was, according to prophesy by Shakyamuni himself, the first person in 400 years to understand what was being illuminated." If there is no text or teaching that is the Buddha's words, then how can you put credence into the statement that Shakyamuni actually prophesied anything? Your logic is flawed. Now I am not taking sides on these matters for I have no opinion either way. I rely on practices to show me their effectiveness; I do not rely on deteriorated historical accounts written by pandits in order to grant credibility and worthiness of practice. And are you also saying that nobody in the "theravadans or any of the 24 schools" was enlightened in the 400 years following Buddha's arrival? Nobody? And then your statements that "The reality of reality is non-conceptual, so nobodies words could possibly have it right. It is free of the four extremes. It is only apprehendable by direct experience, free of conceptual designation and mental imputation of any kind." Are you saying that illumination is incapable of being taught? If so, then how could anyone teach it, let alone write it down to teach it to others? And then, why would the inability of the conceptual mind to realize illumination in any way prevent the methods of arriving at that conclusion from being taught? How many people can understand the reaction of the atoms in an atomic blast, yet, if they follow the instructions still accomplish a nuclear big bang? Some things to think about.. TI

Hi Konchog I've been reading Natural Perfection: Longchenpa's radical Dzogchen. Where do you find all of these good books? I haven't read that much, but so far, Dowman's introduction has blown me away. First off, the definition of rigpa!!! For me, this has confirmed that my "satori" moments are in fact "rigpa". I especially like the mention that rigpa is "a constant experience of pure pleasure". Bliss! I guess I am one of these rare people who have realized rigpa without a transmission from a guru.. The other part that is blowing me away is the mention of "light": Finally! Someone who describes the light and identifies it as rigpa. And talks about it too, as light! Sometimes the light is so bright that it is blinding. Thank you for pointing out this book. Wonderful! TI

If you are going to quote someone, it is common courtesy to post the link or just acknowledge the author. http://books.google.ca/books?id=UXK9JGMVW9IC&pg=PA73&lpg=PA73&dq=wisdom+of+enlightenment+manifests+spontaneously+without+limits&source=bl&ots=v6qlrI5uxe&sig=5DKqH7-yKpJX0hcP4U4KPh-4Xb8&hl=en&sa=X&ei=X1UkUeXWDcPfiAKzwoCYAQ&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=wisdom%20of%20enlightenment%20manifests%20spontaneously%20without%20limits&f=false TI

Hi Stefos, I'm trying to understand your statement: " Dzogchen does not posit this either." Lately I've been reading that samsara and nirvana are the "one taste" in the many Dzogchen/Mahamudra texts.. From C N Norbu: Stefos, what then would the "One Taste" be if not both sides of the same coin? TI

Smoke from the cannons...

This is typical Yogic pranayama. Oh, I see.. does Namkhai Norbu call kumbhaka tummo? Are you blaming him for your misunderstanding? Gee, I see in the book that you quoted, from C N Norbu, he has referenced "The Six Yogas of Naropa" for his interpretation of tummo.. Perhaps C N Norbu has misquoted Naropa? http://books.google.ca/books?id=I0OFnChLoZUC&pg=PA21&lpg=PA21&dq=while+the+closed+hold+increases+to+two+cycles&source=bl&ots=olDtVj4CAj&sig=pIvy5DS5wwfre0ikbiAtTtWV_sU&hl=en&sa=X&ei=R1YhUYmiIsH9igK1nYBg&ved=0CDIQ6AEwAA#v=snippet&q=kumbhaka%20&f=false Nope. Did C N Norbu make some booboos there? He says: But again, kumbhaka is holding your breath, not collapsing ida and pingala into the central channel.. Let's see what I can find: Oh, here, this is interesting.. This is C N Norbu's quote from that book: http://www.wisdom-books.com/ProductExtract.asp?PID=11272 Gee Alwaysoff, your first quote doesn't even mention tummo. Here is the full paragraph: Yet, you used this to support the idea that C N Norbu calls kumbhaka tummo. ? Here is more from that same book you quoted from: There. Now we have it in context.. from the same book you quoted. Kumbhaka is not tummo. C N Norbu didn't write that. You misunderstood. It is very clear. I will dispense with the insults. No more fun.. TI

Hi Alwaysoff, Is that your level of scholarship? You cut and paste sentences, totally out of context and focus on the fact that the words "holding your breath" are in the instructions? LOL Tell you what. Take a deep breath and hold it. Getting hot? Any inner fire? There are many breathing cycles in pranayama, a classic one is 1-4-2. They do not produce heat below the navel. They make you sweat, give you the shakes and purify, but khumbaka is not tummo, it is a subset, one small step in the practice of tummo, like I have stated. You totally neglected the aspects of focusing the mind below the navel, directing the winds, mixing in the saliva prayu, then releasing the locks and taking the heat up the central channel (sushumna).. Ok. So you're going to drag me through the mud of your ignorance.. For the sake of others here, here we go: This is what The Bliss of Inner Fire says: Now lets take a look at Kelsang Gyatso says about the practice of tummo: Now, I don't have Clear Light of Bliss on Kindle, and I'm not going to type all the instructions, but the instructions are very similar to Lama Yeshe's instructions. They come from Tsongkhapa. Next let us examine "The Six Yogas of Naropa" I will remind you. This is what you said about tummo: and you said: If I had to compare vase breathing to a yogic practice, I would say that it is similar to kriya yoga pranayama, or Paramahansa Yogananda's Spinal Breathing (as per Norman Paulsen). And you know, the practice of tummo is very similar to the practices described in "Taoist Yoga" by Charles Luk. http://www.amazon.com/Taoist-Yoga-Immortality-Charles-Luk/dp/0877280673 So now I must assume, by judging the fact that you selectively quote bits and pieces from texts to support your radically erroneous statements, that you also do the same with material that nobody else knows about or is willing to take the time to verify. Loss of credibility there.. Big time. After a while, you don't even need to do kumbhaka in order to send flames up the spine, or anywhere you'd like. You should have known this if you had been practising tummo. And lastly, you've accused me of not knowing the difference between karmamudra and kagyu. Perhaps you can explain that they are no in way related, that there is no connection in lineage there. On second thought, I don't really care.. On another note, with reference to karmamudra, This is what the Dalai Lama said http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Roach So, big time practioner of karmamudra, tell me. What does it taste like? TI