Tibetan_Ice

Hi C T In an effort to establish some common ground, I have found some definitions which correspond to my usage of words and current belief system. Hopefully they will shed some light on this topic. You said: In support of my definition of Ground, or Primordial Ground, which is rigpa, I would like to present this text: link: http://www.rigpawiki...hp?title=Ground Let's examine the first statement: "The ground of Dzogchen is the fundamental, primordial state, our absolute nature, which is already perfect and always present." According to this statement, the ground of Dzogchen is the primordial state. And, according to the next statement further on "In the general Buddhist teachings, the Ground is also referred to as the buddha nature." So it follows that realizing the Ground is realizing Buddha nature. I think that you are looking at the sequence of "Ground, path and fruition" as a linear progression of practice, whereas I am using the term Ground in order to identify the state, regardless of the method of arriving at that state. Therefore, I am not confused, nor am I confusing the identification of the state of rigpa with the means of arriving to the state of rigpa. "Ground, path, fruition" is the method. Primordial Ground is the imutable, unchanging state. Primordial Ground does not grow or become by means of path or fruition, it is always constant. You said: So yes, rigpa is Buddhahood. It is not a sham. I don't see any logic or justification for your statement other than it seems to confuse the method with arriving at the Primordial Ground, with the definition of the Primordial Ground (or rigpa). What part exactly is the sham? Perhaps the sham is when a guru performs a transmission to give you a taste of rigpa, and when it doesn't work, the guru blames it on your past samskaras and karmas? The other vague argument I have is that Dzogchen is unlike conventional Buddhism in the sense that there is no path and fruition. Dzogchen cuts directly to the Primordial Ground, the path is a non-path and the fruition is realizing that there is no path or fruition needed. Bang! You're there. Apparently, this Dzogchen point of view has been greatly criticized by conventional Buddhists: from Heart Drops of Dhamakaya: I think this is pretty good argument against relying on a path and a stage of fruition, don't you? In my simple, very stupid (but clear) interpretation, Dzogchen is: Step 1: Realize that this life is a dream Step 2: Adopt the view Step 3: Never forget it, even for a moment. I don't like calling Mind "rigpa". I also don't see how you can say that "There is nothing special at all to be experienced when the guru blesses the student to recognize Mind (its true nature, that is)" When I was "blessed" by Jesus in a church a long time ago, it was so profound that it was bar none the biggest event in my life. It was the first time I could not physically move no matter how hard I tried. Waves of energy were pouring through me. I split apart into various components with large amounts of space in between. My eyes cried, the bliss was tremendous, I felt so insignificant compared to the power that Jesus has, that I admit it, I am nothing. Just a little spec of light. It was mind blowing, gut wrenching, ecstatic, holy, sureal and miraculous. It was the farthest thing away from "nothing special" that I can think of. Yet you say that "There is nothing special at all to be experienced when the guru blesses the student to recognize Mind". Has somesome sold you a bad deck of cards? I mean no offence here. I'm just trying to illustrate that there is a vast difference between experiences, and I would expect nothing less from realized gurus from Tibet. Gurus who can walk through walls, draw a picture of a cow on a wall and then proceed to milk it, evaporate into a bolt of rainbow light... Surely they too must be able to grant a taste of the Primordial state. I know it must seem like I'm just contradicting everything you are saying, and I admit, it does seem like that to me too. Humility does have it's place, but isn't there at least some obligation to the rest of the sentient beings to impress knowledge thereby enabling a speedier liberation? And aren't open demonstrations part of that display? Sometimes you have to roar like a lion, don't you? Make a hard effort to grab the golden chalice with all your heart and just go for it! Thank you very much for disclosing your experience. Yes, I agree. "My" becomes meaningless. In the handful of mystical experiences (I call them satori moments, probably erroneously) that I have had, there was only "ME" or "US" or one. I was the bathtub, I was the soap, I was the water droplets, I was looking back at me. TI

Hi C T I can see we have different opinions on this matter. I am not saying that rigpa is on the other side, Alan Wallace is saying that. On many occaisions. In no uncertain terms. As a matter of fact he even has a podcast where he sings "Break on through to the other side", like the popular 70's song. And, to Alan Wallace and his writings from several prominant masters, they all say the same thing. You can't miss rigpa. It is an implosion, an event whereby you are no longer, and Primordial Ground is realized. Here are some of Alan Wallace's quotes: Does this sound like your introduction to Primordial Ground? link: http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Trekch%C3%B6 There are things that you've said that I have found elsewhere, like once you realize Primordial Ground (rigpa), you drop all other practices and focus on remaining in that state 24 hours a day (assuming of course that you can get back to it). I wouldn't call rigpa "rigpa mind", for in the state of rigpa, the mind is long gone. To me, the "rigpa" practices you've described are something like remaining in the substrate consciousness and not breaking through. Perhaps they are preliminary practices and not a true realization of the view (or non-view)? Also, Alan Wallace says that some people can even realize rigpa through shamatha alone. He calls shamatha the little train that could. But he does emphatically state, as did Dudjom Lingpa, that without shamatha, there is no chance of retaining rigpa. Think about it. You said that they told you: If you were in the non-state of rigpa, you wouldn't have any discursive or distractive mental movements to begin with. This is my opinion and it coincides with what I've learned. What are your sources? Where did you get such teachings? Have you received the initiation into Primordial Ground (rigpa)? What was it like? Did your consciousness expand to be all things in the infinite universes? Realizing rigpa is realizing Buddha- hood. I realize that you are saying that you have been taught that you can go back and forth from Buddha-hood and back, by fending off the conceptual mind. I have to respectfully disagree with those beliefs. I think you can gain access to the substrate consciousness like that, the ground of samsara and nirvana, but you still have to break on through to the other side. TI

Hi Anamatva Yes, I believe he said that. It kind of reminds me of the stories I've read about Hindu gurus who have manifested their bodies into far away locations, or transported themselves over great distances. I'll bet they just turned into the rainbow body and then back to physical at the target location. I think there is much more to all of this than just realizing rainbow body at the time of death. He also said that there have been 13 occurences of rainbow bodies from one Dzogchen master's students just recently.. !!! What is great about Alan Wallace is that he has levels of shamatha practice based on your mind-set at the time. If your mind is very coarse and scattered, you do shamatha/watching the breath at the navel because it is easiest to focus on gross movements. If you have some modicum of peace, you can practice watching the breath at the upper lip. If you are really settled and bright, you can switch to awareness of awareness practices, watching the mind etc.. So it is not one practice fits all, but you get to do your own assessment and proceed accordingly. TI

Hi Anamatva Yes, I have "Stilling The Mind" by Alan Wallace. I thought it was a good book. Alan takes Dudjom LIngpa's teachings, paragraph by paragraph and expands on each one. It is very profound and deep. Towards the end of the book, Alan wrote a section on "Signs of Progress". And, when you read them, you would swear that they are more like bad things you run into along the path. For example, one sign of progress is "the impression that all your thoughts are wreaking havoc in your body, speech and mind, like boulders rolling down a steep mountain, crushing and destroying everything in the path". Or, "such unbearable misery that you think your heart will burst". Or, "the emergence, one after another, of all kinds of thoughts stemming from the mental afflictions of the five poisons, so that you must pursue them, as painful as this may be." The last chapter contains a section on "Pitfalls", which is quite informative. And, of course, throughout the whole book, as in his retreats, he emphasizes the importance of shamatha. Without shamatha, you have nothing. I would definately recommend this book. I would also recommend his "Mind in a Balance" and his "The Attention Revolution", not only for a recap of the basics, but for the neat little exercises that he has for working with awareness and resting the mind. There is one practice of moving the attention around the body which I try to do every day. It really settles the mind and is a great preliminary practice before meditation. Yes "A Clear Mirror" sounds good. I've just ordered it. I have "Perfect Clarity". Have yet to start reading it. (just not enough time in a day) I also have Alan Wallace's latest book called "Dreaming Yourself Awake". http://www.amazon.co...n/dp/159030957X but I haven't opened it yet, just skimmed it.. It looks interesting. I would definitely recommend "The Flight of the Garuda" by K Dowman. If you haven't read it, I would also strongly recommend "Heart Drops of Dharmakaya" because it describes the practices of Trekcho and Togel. You might be shocked at what is said about Trekcho. It is an absolute reductionist view of Bon Dzogchen. This book also presents the Bardo state and how to use it properly. If you are a voracious reader, I would recommend the classic Buddhist Meditation Manual. It is a really BIG book (853 pages) and it is free: http://www.accesstoi...ication2011.pdf but it is packed. A little hard to read, but it contains things nobody else talks about. Other books I have found value in are: Dzogchen, The Self-Perfected State - C N Norbu Vivid Awareness, The Mind Instructions of Khenpo Gangshar, Khenchen Thrangu My motto is "practice before pleasure" and reading is such a great pleasure! Wow, that last podcast by Alan Wallace about the rainbow bodies is phenomenal. I didn't know that there was a rainbow body with which the practitioner simply goes "pop" and turns into a trail of light while still alive. TI

Hi Jeff, Actually, I kind of mind. First off, these are not my techniques. Secondly, you are suggesting something which is an active practice, which is not a process of letting be, and, which is a process of mistaking the subconscious mind as "further back". Had you done any extensive disciplined meditation, you would realize that although thoughts are easily recognizable in the conscious mind, the subconscious mind contains thousands of thoughts. The pre-intent area of the your understanding of mind is really the subconscious. If you had attained a modicum of clarity, you should have seen this rather than suggest that I go further back. To be quite honest, I find that talking to you is a waste of time. And, I also resent the fact that you pose as someone who understands the deep intricacies of meditation, when you all you do is play with energy, have no regular practices, and quote from sources you have no true understanding of. I also deeply resent the fact that you cannot see the dammage that AYP is doing to people and even support their misguided practices by suggesting to people on the AYP forum that they continue their "I AM" mantra repetition, like you know best. link: http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12256#105142 Had you understood my arguments that I presented against AYP, you would no longer be supporting AYP. And please do not tell me that they are your friends there. If you were their friends, you would help them instead of help bury them. Evidently, you do not underestand that Yogani is promoting laxity which is a detriment to intelligence. Please do not correspond with me in the future, I have no interest in wasting my time or feeding your endless misunderstandings of concepts and spiritual practices. Thank you. TI

Hi C T Just finished reading that Dudjom Rinpoche text.. You know, he does say that too, about noting thoughts or focusing directly on them, and does suggest that at first, one should look directly at the thought. But it is a preliminary practice "until you perfect higher insight's sublte power". It is also so interesting that he says " the experience of stillness in a non-conceptual natural state will be suddenly, abruptly destroyed" !!! Yes, it all implodes, feels like death, much fear and the big black.. and rigpa (primordial non-state) is on the other side of that. SO CLOSE YET SO FAR.. TI

Hi C. T. Where did you get that quote? I found a similar one here: link: http://archive.thebu...ing/dudjom.html Now, I'm going to very picky here. Alan Wallace does talk about that technique in one of his podcasts, I think it was Spring of 2011... He said that you wait, like a cat watching a mouse hole, and as soon as a thought pops up, you snip it. And, you keep doing that continuously.. It is a viable technique, to recognize thoughts at the moment of birth and snip them. But, he also says that the danger of doing such a practice is that you are "doing" something and also you can become tense while doing it. So it does not really produce shamatha. Have you considered that perhaps the idea that "Simple recognition of thoughts as they arise breaks their flow. " does break the flow, but the act of recognition is disturbing the steady fixed stream of knowing? It is similar to trying to calm or stop the mind with mantra. In other words, it is a form of noting. And noting is not true Dzogchen for a number of reasons. Noting takes effort. And, if you have ever have watched your thoughts, the thoughts come from different locations. So, you are always bending and twisting your attention around trying to focus on the thoughts. The latest instructions by Alan Wallace say that "one has to keep the Knowing stable and continuous. So, although the cat-watching-hole-technique is very useful, because it trains you to focus on your thoughts and snip them before they bloom, there are more refined techniques, which more closely approach the true "Let it be". Alan Wallace mentions a second slightly more advanced technique. It is compared to a crow flying up into the sky from a boat in the middle of the ocean. The crow (thought) takes flight, and seeing no where to land, eventually comes back to the ship and returns to where it once rested. The point is this: if you do absolutely nothing with the thought, it will dissolve on it's own. There is no need to note the thought. No need to recognize the thought. If you don't give the thought any energy, it will dissolve on it's own. If you don't avert the thought either, it will dissolve on it's own. It's a little subtler technique than the one mentioned by Dudjom Rinpoche in those quotes. I think what Alan Wallace is pointing out is that the idea that when Dujom Rinpoche says "However, if you do not recognize thoughts as soon as they arise, they will naturally spread.", it is not quite right, or perhaps it is a good introductory practice. The premise being: If you do not give the thought any energy, instead of 'spreading', the thought simply dissolves. Big difference there.. If thoughts ignored actually did spread, we'd have a huge mushroom cloud of thoughts to contend with at the end of every day, wouldn't we? I have tried both techniques. The first technique (cat at the hole) left me hyper and feeling like I was a hunter looking for the next target. I did not accomplish much except that I did recognize that before the mind speaks out a thought, the meaning of the thought is manifested at a deeper level. The second technique was the big one for me. Making a relaxed effort to just remain in a state of not grasping or averting thoughts produced a state whereby the thoughts eventually stopped and then the coarse mind dissolved. The subtler mind dissolved too. The golden light of awareness shrank down, the big black came and I thought I was dying.. ! If you have much experience with the first technique, I would suggest trying the second technique. Strive to keep a stream of knowing and just let the thoughts be. Don't even try to note them. Don't try not to note them either.. See what happens.. What I did was pick a thought, focus on the part of the mind that "knows" the thought (see the golden light). It is closer to the feeling of "I" in the center of the head by the medulla. Then, wait and watch the thought dissolve. The next major thought that arises, look directly at it, know it, then wait and watch it dissolve. I do this first to center myself in the part of the "I" that knows. Once centered in that place, remain in that area, the golden light that knows, and just ignore all thoughts by letting them be, no averting or grasping. . Remain there. Don't move your attention. Maintain a steady stream of knowing. The golden light will eventually collapse downward towards the heart. You should also see a 'big black' coming at you from above. The feeling of "I" will lose it's footing, it's quite a pronounced feeling. The levels of consciousness will collapse. That is the point where I am at and can't get past.. Oh, I was going to mention, Alan Wallace is not infallible. Nobody is infallible. And, really I'm not that intelligent. I'm just dedicated. If you do decide to try the second tecnique, I would love to hear how it turns out. TI

Oops, the pointing out instructions are actually on 17, from Padmasambhava. 18 contains some ways to attain the view. C T, 19 contains a very clear explanation that rigpa is beyond the substrate cosciousness and that you implode into rigpa. This definitely contradicts Berzin's writings. No big deal, but I tend to trust Wallace because I know his training, history and level of understanding. I mean if I have to trust teachings... TI

Hi C T Yes, I'm doing more research and discovering the Dzogchen has a veritable plethora of introductory practices, which include ngondro (massive mantra repetitions), and other techniques to help train and stabilize the mind. I think Allan Wallace calls some of them shamatha practices.. He said that without a clear stable resting mind, realization is fleeting if ever achieved. Thanks for the link. Yes, that is a good essay by Alan Wallace I did notice, however that he contrasts the conceptual with the emptiness of the mind, not rigpa. And, if a person is familiar with Alan Wallace's path to rigpa, one realizes that once a person has succeeded in Shamatha, stilling the mind, the coarse mind dissolves. This is a definite experience, which feels like dying, and filled with fear if one doesn't understand what is going on, and it demarcates the transition into rigpa. He says that the coarse mind shuts off and there is a split second when there is no mind, before the 'subtle' mind takes over. It's like jumping through a dark moment.. Alan also spends a few minutes in a few lectures about the people who fool themselves by thinking that they are in rigpa when they sit there, observe their thoughts, the thoughts lessen and there is some space, and they misinterpret the state and tell everyone that they are performing rigpa meditation.. I guess that's sort of what Berzin reminds me of by his liberal usage of the term (no offence). Thanks for your comments. TI

Hi Anamatva You sure didn't waste any time getting through the retreat.. I'm at 18 now. Yes, 16 is a good meditation which consists of the pointing out instructions of Padmasambhava. Kind of an oral transmission. Alan Wallace did that in a few other previous retreats, stepping aside and letting Padmasambhava do the instructing by reciting his text, word for word.. Funny, the first thing that came to mind when you said, "suggestions about where to take my studies" was, "I'm going to listen to the whole thing one more time." There is so much there that I'm sure I've missed some concepts.. For some reason I don't think Alwayson is going to explain what practices he does in any great detail, so I did some research and I discovered some interesting readings along the way. This is a an overview of everything, seems to put it in perspective for me: http://www.abuddhistlibrary.com/Buddhism/A%20-%20Tibetan%20Buddhism/Authors/Dudjom%20Rinpoche/The%20Dzogchen%20View%20of%20Tantra/Dzogchen%20View%20of%20Tantric%20Ngondro.htm This is a very interesting essay by C N Norbu. He says some very interesting things in there, even about guru yoga and mantras.. I especially liked it when he said (bolded): link: http://www.melong.com/en/teachings/49-the-song-of-the-vajra.html And this is very interesting, the idea of energy points.. Seems C N Norbu has little jems of knowledge that I would love to learn more about: I wonder where I can find more about the upadesa. .. . .. As a matter of fact, there is another little gem in "Dzogchen -The Self-Perfected-State " by C N Norbu about the white light: I agree, it's the best that I've heard of Allan Wallace too, so far. I wish I had his capacity for language.. TI

Hi C T I've been looking at your reference to "recognizing the alaya for habits". It is from the Berzin Archives. I get a really bad feeling from reading his interpretation of Dzogchen. It is so complex and contains so many steps that it does not seem like even Dzogchen to me. I mean, he talks about anuyoga, mantra repetition, even Buddha figures in Mahayoga.. Dzogchen is the realization that everything dissolves on it's own accord by just letting it be. You don't need to do mantra repetition in order to recognize that aspect. So why does he describe an obstacle course of practices that you have to do? The dissolution is not dependant on previous practices, as he would lead you to believe. For example: http://www.berzinarc...itation_02.html Maybe you could explain that to me.. TI

Hi Alwayson, I am totally surprised by your question. I thought you'd read vast numbers of Buddhist books, and read about all the magic acts and abilities that the Buddhist masters have displayed. Your questioning is either an admission of a lack of knowledge, lack of understanding, or you are just trolling. You know, there is an old saying, something about pearls before swine.. Someone asked me to start with that. link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pearls_Before_Swine . But, to answer your question, at the risk of being trampled, I will respond with my personal experiences so they cannot be construed as heresay. Jesus. I met Jesus in a church about 24 years ago. Sat on the bench, could not move. Massive realization. I've written about it many times. Since then, Jesus is always there. Always there. So is the Holy Ghost. The Holy Ghost. The Holy Ghost looks like a ball of white transparent light with wings. It comes around and shoots beams of light at people's heads, whereupon the person is left with two wings of light on the head that resemble a dove's wings. The resultant experience is that of top-down waves of energy that ooze down on the inside of the body like molasses.. Sri Anandi Ma and Dhyan Yogi. When I received shaktipat in absentia, I communicated with Sri Anandi Ma and Dhyan Yogi many times. I saw their faces. They gave me instructions. Sri Anandi Ma even materialized a red rose in the astral plane for me after passing my arduous ten-day initiation. The Dalai Lama. About three months ago, he visited me one night as I was lying in bed, just before falling asleep. It supercharged me so much I did not sleep much that night. He is such a fine compassionate being. C N Norbu. He visited me last week and appeared, again above the foot of the bed as I was just lying down to go to sleep. He smiled and after that, the golden aware light in my head expanded.. Didn't sleep much that night either. Max. When I first hear Max talk about Kunlun on a radio show, I experienced massive waves/tingles/energies that lasted for over two hours. Then, after practising Kunlun for a while, a world appeared to me on the astral plane. It looked like a huge ocean, and blue sky. I tried to go there, but Max appeared, and shook his finger at me. I had to wait. But the vision persisted, through the day and night. After a few days, and practising more Kunlun, I tried to "go" to that world. When I got there I noticed that there was a clay or brown figure floating above the water. So, I went and occupied the figure. Then, I watched the most spectacular sunrise that I've ever seen. The vision of the world and the sun lasted for about a month. I would meditate, then go and inhabit the figure. Towards the end, the figure started moving in circle eights. It was like being on a joy ride. I think I was being purified. Since then, if I think of Max, sometimes he will appear to me. The last time I saw him was about three weeks ago. He looked like he had lost some weight, but still had some lose skin under his chin, like he was recovering from a double chin.. And, every time he visits me, I get so charged that I don't sleep much. On two separate occasions, after meditation sessions, I have seen an angel. A wonderful being of transparent white light, with wings that stretched out to the ground. The love that was transmitted was so overwhelming, you just wouldn't believe it. It was during times when I meditated with a mantra from the heart and a sincere desire to realize God. I've also communicated with a "Buddha" on the astral plane. I don't think it was "the Buddha" because this one had a fat belly. But, I would ask it questions and he would draw little scenes to answer my questions. And the little scenes that he would draw always started at the bottom left, and then went upwards.. I think it may have been a Japanese Buddha.. You know, seeing beings on the astral planes, or in the mind's eye, or through the subtrate consciousness or whatever you want to call it, is not bullshit. A good use for bullshit is to compact them tightly into bricks, bake them in the oven and then build a wall, or house out of them. That will stop the winds. TI

Hi Pero, Just because you cannot conceive of attending lessons through the astral plane to hear oral instructions, or receive transmissions or shaktipat, it does not mean that these are not possible. Try expanding your vision and understanding a little.. You'd be surprised how many Buddhist teachings (and books) have been channeled from spirits without bodies.. TI

Hi CT I don't think the conceptual mind is the opposite of the state of rigpa. I think there is slight misinterpretation of this concept which has been proliferated by various teachings. It is a subtle distinction but it has led to people thinking that the "gap between thoughts" is rigpa. Granted, rigpa is inherent in all states of mind, but it is not the "gap between thoughts". It is the gap between occurences of the conceptual mind. I wouldn't even call it a gap. This main misinterpretation is found in various teachings. They say, "watch your thoughts". At some point you will notice that there is no thought. That gap between thoughts is it. Pure awareness. But what they don't say in the instructions is that if you come to a point where you do not notice any thoughts (and you are not simply focusing on the space into which the thought dissolved), try expanding your scope or field of awareness. Because, you might succeed in clearing a little space in which no thoughts arise, but if you expand your scope or field of awareness, make it larger and more subtle, you will discover hundreds or thousands of thoughts that you wern't aware of in your subconscious. If you grasp or avert those, you are caught and you are not in the state rigpa. If, on the other hand, you can maintain a state of not grasping or averting those hundreds or thousands of thoughts, the thoughts arise and pass more quickly. It looks like you are viewing hundreds of colored visions go whizzing by. Eventually, the whole event of arising and passing shuts off if you do not grasp or avert, and the coarse mind dissolves into the substrate consciousness. But that isn't even rigpa. In order to get to rigpa (if i can use those crude terms), one has to go beyond the substrate consciousness (the ground of nirvana and samsara) right down to Primordial Ground. And even that idea isn't quite correct because it is still dualistic to speak of it in this way. link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dzogchen That last part about "which cannot be found by searching" hits me in the head like a hammer. You see, I was reading Franklin Merrill-Wolff's book called "Experience and Philosophy" in the park one day. And, he said the same thing. He said, that realization is very simple. It is so simple, in fact that everyone misses it. They miss it by searching for it. So, after reading that, I sat up straight and made an effort not to search for anything. Suddenly, a waterous-clear-light presence revealed itself to me. It was clear like crystal, and filled with love/bliss/joy. I was astounded and mesmerized. It was physically situation between the "I" in the head and the outer visual field. The silence and taste of it only lasted for a few seconds because the conceptual mind, like a massive billowing cloud of thoughts, kept trying to erupt from the back, causing the state to disappear. It was yelling out thoughts like "this is it!", "you have finally found it", "you have discovered the truth", "It won't last".. I fought real hard to strike down that cloud of thoughts but with all my efforts could not keep it at bay. I did get back into the state a few minutes later by relaxing into it, but again it didn't last long and then it went away and I can't seem to get back to it. The state was like looking into the face of God. There was no me or God (whatever that was), there was just a "we". So much love and bliss, clarity and light, shine and presence. At that point, I started to hate the conceptual mind. I started to realize that the conceptual mind is one of the veils (or the veil) that prevents us from seeing the truth of reality. Whether or not that state was rigpa, I do not know because Nobody has shown me rigpa and put a label on it. But yes, I would love for that state to grow and become permanent. But there is no comparison between that state and the "gap between thoughts". So, perhaps I am being picky, very picky here. But if people would realize that the absence of thoughts is a sign of progress on the path and keep pursuing that, by expanding the space of awareness, they might eventually get to the point where they truly get deeper. Thanks for taking a sincere interest the subject and contributing your knowledge. TI

Gee Alwayson, do you even follow the arguments in the posts? The original comment that I was replying to was Pero's comment that "Be careful, it might not be on that long... (btw you can't get transmission from Rinpoche from the replay)" when he was referring to the fact that Anamatva was going to use the replay option to monitor the transmission. Pero is saying that you can't get the transmission from Rinpoche from the replay. http://thetaobums.com/topic/25700-introduction-to-dzogchen-retreat-with-b-alan-wallace/page__st__48#entry382762 My argument is that it is advertised on the website that "For transmission there is no distance, if you are far or near it doesn't matter because knowledge of transmission is beyond time and distance. So for this reason we can use this method." So, if knowledge of transmission is beyond time and distance, then a replay of the transmission should be just as effective, hence Pero is mistaken. So, the next time you call me a liar, at least have the courtesy to understand the topic before shooting off your misguided conclusions. TI

Hi C T, I think your interpretation is a good attempt at an explanation, but I don't think it is "focusing on the gaps" between thoughts. Here is what C N Norbu says about thoughts: Note: "state of presence" is defined as rigpa in this book. and this: TI

Tibetan_Ice, on 14 December 2012 - 04:37 PM, said: Golly, normally, when people quote text on websites, it means that that is what they believe. This is right from the tsegyalgar website: link: http://tsegyalgar.org/theteachings/worldwidetransmissions/ So, if you can't grasp the fact that they do advertise on the website that "knowledge of transmission is beyond time and distance." that it is in plain sight on the website, I'm not sure there is much point in talking to you. Or perhaps you are just saying the opposite of what I am saying just to be dialectic.. Nope. Those instructions, the PHAT instructions are in the book called "The Flight of the Garuda", revised edition, compiled and translated by Keith Dowman in two places.. First, in the actual "The Flight of the Garuda" text on page 105. It is a commentary by Keith in which he lists several alternate meditation methods, of which PHAT is included. (for practitioners of lessor capacities). The second occurence is in "The Extraordinary Reality of Soverign Wisdom". Page 167. Yes, I don't doubt that. But Alan Wallace says that the knowledge of the initial pointing out instructions, if clearly understood by the recipient, is sufficient. He also says that the conventional method is to understand the view first and then do the meditations, but that you can also do the meditations and then realize the knowledge of transmission from experience. And you know, most of the "Flight of the Garuda" seems to be pointing out instructions. I said: You said: Well, let's see what C N Norbu says.. From page 122, "Dzogchen, The Self-Perfected State - Chogyal Namkahi Norbu" So I think CN Norbu is saying that it is not important to belong to a club or cherry pick teachings based on labels , it is more important to discover "what is". But you know, I don't see why a Dzogchen master such as C N Norbu, couldn't bypass time and space and grant transmissions through the astral plane, or any plane or method. Many gurus, spiritual beings and even Max (kunlun) have the ability to visit other people through the astral planes, or dreams or visions. TI

Hi Jeff, Not that it would make any difference because I'm unsure if you can run with this, but.. Alan Wallace draws parallels between Dzogchen teachings and Christianity, Advaita Vedanta, Ramana and more in the podcast below from his Dzogchen retreat. He concurs that "they are all pointing at it", the same thing. And,, ha ha.. he says "To point a finger at the essential nature that emerges from all, all of the teachings.. In general people of inferior intelligence are puzzled by the great number of teachings that are said to be very profound and vast." Alan claims that even Padmasambhava said that Dzogchen is a universal truth. He says that Padmasambhava says that Hinduism tradition is pointing to it when they refer to atman, Brahtma.. It is pocast number 16. You can skip the meditation section (since you don't practice) and start listening at 58:00. http://archive.org/d...AlanWallace2012 He also claims that the Christian tradition had "settling the mind in the natural state" and "awareness of awareness".. It is so nice to hear intelligent, well-educated, gifted teachers life Alan Wallace share the benefits of his insights. TI

Jijaji ! How are you? Long time no see! Yes, isn't it nice that some people have the perspicacity to be able to tell that AYP is some kind of scientific experiment full of misinformed customized practices and unwary practitioners who suffer the consequences.. Hopefully more people will come forward and spread the word. We can help those who are caught in Yogani's trap and prevent people from making the same mistake that I did, if we keep at it. I hope everything is well with you. TI

Hi Alwayson, It appears that you don't understand the jhanas (too). The jhanas are not contrived nor are they all conceptual. The first four material jhanas are conceptual states, but the last four formless jhanas are not. The jhana of neither perception nor non-perception is not a conceptual state. Nor is the jhana of cessation. Now if you meant to say that sitting down to meditate in order to reach the jhanas, as an end in itself is a hinderance, then you would be right. But that's not what you said. You used the words "contrived" and "conceptual" The object is not to cling to the jhanas, letting them dissolve and getting beyond them. But passing through the jhanas is what eveyone does on the way to Primordial Ground. Some just spend more time in them than others. There is also the view that the jhanas, which dissolve the coarse mind (or occur while the coarse mind is dissolving), take the practitioner to the substrate consciousness. The substrate consciousness is way more powerful than the coarse mind. From the substrate consciousness, one has the power to reveal past lives, know the minds of others... it is a form of superconsciousness. It is from this basis, empowered by the superconsciousness that one can penetrate the substrate consciousness. Neither averting nor grasping while in superconsciousness is also way more powerful and rapid. But the key, as far as my interpretation of the Dzogchen view goes, you will pass through these stages and you should not get hung up on them, for they too will dissolve. TI

Hi C T. I think that article is horrible. Or at least it doesn't have anything to do with what I've been reading about Dzogchen.. For Example: In Dzogchen, you let it be, but my understanding is that you focus on thoughts directly until they dissolve. You focus on the mind until it dissolves into the substrate. You focus on the substrate until it dissolves (or shatter the substrate with other techniques). Then you hit the primordial state. And, you don't really "focus", you simply watch until the thoughts etc dissolve, without grasping or aversion. You observe the arising and passing without being affected. You learn that nothing is permanent and that everything dissolves back into the natural state, if only you just leave it alone. That is all. It is so simple. So why is Boaz saying that you have to do all those other things like "meditation" and "opening heartmind", seeing ignorance/desire of the five skandhas.. etc? Sounds like an obstacle course to me. I don't believe that is Dzogchen. I think he missed the boat. TI

Hi Pero So why do they advertise on the website that time and space are irrelevant? Who is Rinpoche? You took my statement out of context and now you are making it seem that I am saying the direct introduction is a load of crap. I am saying that Alwayson's unclear statement, that the book called "The Flight of the Garuda" is only for those who have received introduction. How could it be when there are instructions for self-introduction directly in the book? There was no mention of being a restricted book, like I've seen for the book called "The Cystal Cave". Now I believe that Alwayson meant to say was that Dzogchen practices are only for those who have had the direct transmission of the introduction to mind. But that is not what he wrote. I am in no way denigrating that the tradition of transmission. I would like to receive one myself from Norbu or any Dzogchen master. I have received many transmissions, shaktipat, attunements, and seen many masters on the astral planes. Last night I thought of Norbu, and I saw his vision. It may have been the real thing because after the, the space of conscious golden light in my head opened right up and then it took me 3 hours to fall asleep. But on the same token, I find it strange that nobody seems to be able to stretch their minds, examine that aspect (as Buddha would have said to do), and determine for one's self if it is in fact a neccessity. There are many ways to recognize the Primordial consciousness.. I got my first initiation when I was 16. I was riding my motorcyle and I broadsided a station wagon. As my body flew through the air, I watched the whole scene from 40 feet away. That is how you shatter the substrate consciousness and break through to the other side. That is why, in Zen, they hit you with a stick when you are meditating. There are many methods for breaking through to the other side. Dzogchen is a array of methods of learning how to dissolve the layers gradually, and sometimes shockingly. And I do agree, it would be very nice to have someone with the ability to point out, Yes!!! That is the primordial consciousness!!! If you want to be a purist and belong to the Dzogchen club and restrict your practices, mentality and scope to the generally accepted principles of Dzogchen, I have no problem with that. I am not interested in belonging to clubs or propping up the belief system in order to convince myself of their validity. I would much rather find the truth as I am sure no one club has exclusive rights to it. TI

Yup, for all eternity and then some.. It is easier when someone points the way, but it is not necessary. After all, who gave the first transmission to Garab Dorje? Nobody. He got it from Sambhogakaya: http://www.soul-guidance.com/houseofthesun/dzogchen.htm So if Garab Dorje got his transmission by contacting the Sambhogakaya, why can't anyone else do that by themselves? And why should the fact that Garab Dorje obtained his "transmission on his own" prevent others from also doing that? Duh.. TI

And I'd like to dedicate this song to me and my no-self.. Wish you were here.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8VhGtRQxloQ TI

alwayson, on 13 December 2012 - 01:37 PM, said: Hi Alwayson I can see the problem here. Apparently what you write and what I read are two different things. Your first statement said quite plainly that "The Flight of Garuda is for those with transmission." To me, this is saying that the book is written for those who have had the prerequite of the transmission. Your statement implies, and not that subtly, that a person should not be reading the book without first having had the transmission to introduce the nature of the mind. What a load of crap. Your rebuttal isn't even a rebuttal nor proof of a prerequisite. You just totally missed it. Nowhere in "The Flight of the Garuda" does it say that only those who first have a transmission may read that book. As a matter of fact, if you read the sentences on page 164, you will see: In my vocabulary, "self-introduction" means that you can do it yourself. Like a self-serve gas bar.. link: http://www.keithdowman.net/dzogchen/incisive_precepts.htm From page 167, "The Flight of the Garuda". Anyway, Alwayson, I'd like to dedicate a song to you.. TI