Lozen

I just finished Harry Potter the other day, and I'm reading Rosemary Gladstar's herb book whenever I can, and still finishing up On Combat. I am also rereading 98.6 Degrees: the Art of Keeping Your Ass Alive. I don't read as much as I used to.

http://www.rider.edu/~suler/zenstory/zenstory.html

Will do--like I said, haven't read it and don't plan to. Let me know how you like the book.

What insults? Haven't read it. Don't plan to.

You may want to check out the book When the Buddha Dated. It's pretty good.

http://www.hurricanehousing.org/

Really? Thanks! How?

Go Aries go! I am an Aries with Libra rising and moon on the cusp of Pisces/Aquarius. I have Aries in Mercury (duh) and was born in the year of the Earth Sheep. I have my full Chinese chart but nobody here would understand it. I am an extrovert, the other 3 were too close to call. And what am I on the enneagram again, Sean? The really bitchy one. I think an 8? http://www.9types.com/descr/8/ http://www.authenticenneagram.com/practice...r_growth/8.html

I have to wonder about this... My goal is to become MORE sane, grounded, etc. not to be more crazy. When I look at a lot of alchemy and qi gong teachers and practioners, I can't say that I would like to move towards their type of behavior, which seems to border on insanity at times... (Ken Cohen is my exception that proves the rule...) I have seen people make incredible changes but many of them tend to vacillate back to their original imbalance because the changes were made too quickly... I do not want to move more qi if it will separate me from the community I live in and wish to serve. I think I was attracted to it because TCM five element theory makes a LOT of sense to me and because I want a language and series of concepts to guide my (unwanted) spiritual experiences... however, I feel like if I can't describe a practice to someone on the street and have it make sense to them why it's a good idea, maybe it isn't... In the past I have deluded myself into thinkign I was being really spiritual and getting enlightened but when you looked at my behavior.... I just think people should be able to answer the questions "What are my goals with this practice?" and "Why?"

What happened to triple dottie?

I sent Peter Falk the link to that when it first came out. It had me rolling on the floor. It was AMAZING! Go Jon Stewart go!! Especially the part about the puppets, ha ha.

Well since you posted yr cell phone number on a public listserv and told people to call you 24/7, that's not really saying much.

How do you read it with yarrow stalks?

I think I've been guilty of breaking these rules too. In the future, I will try to insult Goenka, Buddhism and the disbelief of evil in more appropriate ways.

Okay I have to admit I called the guy, and I don't know about qualifications, but he has a really cute voice. lol

That is an interesting passage. I agree that denying that one has any evil thoughts or inclinations can lead to repressed evil. I agree with peter falk though that some things are just plain evil no matter which way you slice it. In Judaism the belief is that there is a good inclination and an evil inclination, but the evil inclination is not about wanting to cause harm. It is about selfishness, and desiring to satisfy personal needs without thinking of the moral consequences. The evil inclination is not a bad thing. Without it one would never eat, build a house, marry and have children, etc. It is bad when it is out of balance. For example, sexual desire is not wrong, but rape, incest, etc. is bad. Hunger is not bad, but killing people for food is bad. Etc. etc.

Sorry, I meant to say Trip. Forgive my sleep deprivation induced confusion. I corrected my original post.

Lezlie, Great article!! Heh, I have some friends that'll probably print it out and leave it out in strategic locations around their boyfriend's house... Lozen

Trip, I am not going to self-censor because you or anyone things my words may make me an "attractive target." Peter Falk, Thanks for the support. I too think you have grown immeasurably since I first "met" you though I always thought you were pretty cool. Lozen And for the record I do enjoy a well-intentioned kick in the ass.

Heh heh, that is funny. I don't think RJ cares about aftermath, he's not the only person reading though. Like I said I wasn't advocating censorship, just that maybe people might think about the effects of their words on other people. Since this is a spiritually-based community... oh forget it. If this isn't obvious no amount of pontificating I could make would help at all. THAT much is obvious. As for the story, hopefully you have by now picked up the ability to use a search engine and find the public stories for yourself. The other ones, and our personal versions and rewrites and interpretations and changes, LIKE I SAID, are meant to be discussed in small groups and I'm not going to write about them. It is not that I am worried about shock value. I just do not care to share something deeply personal with the whole world. And like I said honestly guys wouldn't get the jokes anyway. Believe me I have tried.

For the record, I am not advocating rules, censorship or heavy moderation. I was trying to point out the irony in dissing feminism but being okay with the type of behavior that encourages feminism. Does that make sense? I do the same thing when I meet women who are like, "Gosh, I wish I could find a nice guy who isn't an asshole" and then will bite the head off of any guy that tries to open a door for them, cos they can do it themselves... If we are going to diss modern values re: feminism, etc. we need to remember that back before feminism, there was a great respect for women and their modesty. I remember watcing an old 1966 movie Walk, Don't Run, in whih one of the characters caught boarders just *speculating* about her as a sexual prospect, and when they got caught they were terribly ashamed and basically plied her with presents and apologies for the rest of the movie. Feminism has a lot to do with deciding old school demonstrations, rules and codes of conduct were sexist, and so they got rid of them. The point I was trying to make is that I don't think you can have it both ways--the abolishment of male courtesy and the rise of feminism go hand in hand. So if Peter Falk wants to tell dirty jokes at rituals and play butt-touching games in mixed company, he is in some ways (consciously or not) playing into the pattern which includes the opposite extreme of those darned feminists he hates so much. I can't make men treat me or others with courtesy or respect whether in person on online. They are the ones who are responsible for that. I think the two extremes are radical egalitarians who will tell men who are respectful that they are being overprotective, whi equate male gentleness/protectiveness with subordination and between conservatives who encourage boorishness because "boys will be boys" and equate male gentleness/protectiveness as effeminate. Both are wrong. Men should be respectful of women. That's part of what it means to be a man. So women are refusing to be women and men are refusing to be men, has this made things any better? So I guess this is where I am at... I think that feminism has issues in that it blames all unhappiness on patriarchy and they need to really look at other causes... But I really like Wendy Shalit's writing and in it she encourages conservatives to take the claims of feminist seriously--ALL of them--from date rape figures to anorexia to the number of women who say they feel objectified, to stop saying that they are exaggerating or the charge is false or they are too sensitive or they need to just get over it... It doesn't matter if one study is flawed, the same vague yet unmistakable problem she says is still with us--women are unhappy with their bodies, with sexual encounters, with the way men treat them, etc. I think people should really listen to these claims instead of saying "well screw your feminist friends" and "that's their choice if they feel that way" etc. etc. etc. I think that these problems are a product or an expression of a society that has lost respect for female modesty... I could go on and on and on about this for longer than anyone would care to read, but to sum it up I will say that the idea that male courtesy is oppressive is so embedded into our culture that girls are taught to be polite and boys aren't. Then when boys sodomize girls on playgrounds, everyone is shocked and wonders why can't boys be more civilized. Then come the feminists to fight oppression in ways that are often stifling and overly serious. Then guys get pissed off and say feminists are too uptight and women were never oppressed in the old days and go on to treat women in ways that are very different from how women were treated in the old days... Then women get pissed and on and and on and on. I'm just trying to point out this cycle. Not censor anybody.

Hahahaha!! That would be the only thing you'd care about from my entire post. I knew that was going to happen so I only mentioned names of 2 stories from a book I'm constantly raving about which you should be able to easily find if you;ve been paying attention. But the other variations we've heard from lectures from the author herself and other similar stories, are, like I said, to be discussed in small groups of women only, and you won't find them on the web.

Oh for crying out loud. I wasn't hinting at the quality of my thought which you're missing. I was pointing out that the effects of quote unquote "sacred" profanity metered out to all people whether they want it or not. I am sure I self-censor a LOT LESS than many people reading this a lot of whom (like my friend) probably don't post at all. I don't really care whether you are laughing because of Ron or think he walks on water. I personally feel differently and luckily there are lists I'm on where people speak freely without having to worry too much about the aftermath. I was just pointing out the effect of it, but obviously some people don't care about the effects of their actions on other people and are more interested in their own personal enjoyment. Good for you. A nice selfish way to live. I belong to a sacred fire community that holds fire circles and we tell a lot of jokes. We also tell a lot of raunchy jokes. We make sure to do this after dark, around people that are comfortable with it and when there are no children present. It wasn't always this way, but the jokes became an issue, and we had to choose between losing valuable members (mostly mothers) and telling jokes. So we came up with a compromise. One thing about the sacred that I think is really important is this thing called TIMING. We were telling obscene goddess stories in my women's group the other night. It was great. We were rolling on the floor with stories about Baubo and Coyote Dick. These are stories, though, that are meant to be discussed in small groups and only among women. In fact I don't think I would tell them around a man unless it was a highly unusual circumstance. I have tried to share these types of stories with men before and they look at me very confused, whereas women will nod their heads and say "i know exactly what you mean!" before bursting into fits of uproarious laughter. The point is that these stories are medicine, and it is best to give medicine to the right person, under the right circumstance, with appropriate timing, etc. etc. instead of slipping it in everyone's drink or posting it as a response to every single post on a board. Which part of this isn't really obvious? If someone is uncomfortable speaking or is walking out of your sacred ceremony because you told a joke that offended them, then you BOTH fucked up. Them for letting that ruin the experience for them, and you for having inappropriate timing. Honestly one would think that people who are interested in Taoism and spirituality would understand this very basic concept that it's not a dichotomy, you don't have to choose between a) well it was that person's fault for walking out and it was their fault for not creating an environment that was welcoming. Obviously it's not one or the other, there is a dance or interplay going on and ideally it would be a balanced, harmonious one instead of a pre-adolescent blame game. "No, it's HER fault for walking out/self-censoring/whatever." "No, it's THEIR fault for being inappropriate" etc. etc. etc. I honestly don't know why I'm wasting any more time than I already have on this thread. If you don't understand what I'm saying then you probably never will. I can also honestly say that on ignore or off ignore, I've never gotten anything productive from what RJ has said. I find it distracting, obnoxious and frankly, boring. I will say that I try not to let obnoxious, distracting, boring and obscene jokes ruin my participation in something otherwise enjoyable, but to pretend it doesn't have an effect on anybody is silly. Moving onwards.

It is really great that you can try to find some kind of esoteric meaning or some kind of hidden sacred clues in something that only you can understand. My point is that the so-called "sacredness" you're referring to is creating a space in a forum that keeps some people silenced. You can call it their choice (very individualist--how Taoist is that) but truth is we are all responsible for this space that we cocreate and the effect it has on other people. And we all experience the repurcussions of it (in this case, by what we're missing out on). And this isn't just about this one person, I am sure there is more than one. Why is it that 95% of the people that post on here are guys? Is that a coincidence? Are there really THAT many more men interested in this subject matter? Where is the oh-so-Taoist balance? I know that I myself have self-censored on this board a LOT in a way that I wouldn't do in a board that is less macho, or "profanely sacred", or whatever you want to call it (if anybody knows less "profanely sacred" forums please let me know!). Jesus may have hung out with prostitutes and tax collecters, but I doubt people felt uncomfortable speaking around him because of how they knew he would react. Jesus also had a very specific mission and reasons for doing what he was doing, that went beyond "it feels good" or "I feel like it" or "it's my own personal brand of medicine"--he actually maybe considered the effects his actions had on other people. So I don't think the belief that there may be more to things than we think about is a very practical excuse, nor does it liken anyone to Jesus (*you* made the comparison, even though you said you didn't intend to in the next breath.) Anyways, I am done wasting my breath with this thread. Some people will never get it.

Good for you. I have a friend who's been lurking on these forums for as long as I've been posting, who's been practicing taiji since she was a child, who has a lot to say and offer, who has not and will not post because of people trying to have it both ways. And she's not a feminist.