Lozen

Okay, let's go to verse 8 in the interest of keeping this thread alive! 8. Under whatever name and form one may worship the Absolute Reality, it is only a means for realizing It without name and form. That alone is true realization, wherein one knows oneself in relation to that Reality, attains peace and realizes one's identity with it. I really like this one. Of course calling it the Absolute Reality is just as much a name as calling it God or the Universe, but that's neither here nor there.

LOL, my voice is NOT relaxed or relaxing...especially in that class, where I have to repeatedly get everyone quiet and then do the same thing 2 minutes later.

I think the perspective thing is absolutely fascinating. I think about it all the time at my job. I see things a certain way based on my experiences; other teachers and students see things a different way based on their experiences. Nobody is really right or wrong... wow, it's scary to say that because I'm very far from being a postmodernist and I do believe in objective truth and reality and even morality. But what I'm trying to say is that there is not one RIGHT perspective, only some that may be more useful than others. And I don't mean useful in a Machiavellian sense, but as in helping one further along their goals, as opposed to what they THINK they want. I guess I do think there is significance to things even if nobody knows or sees them. The fact that we can't figure out how to subdivide things even smaller than we have, or that there are undiscovered medicines in the rainforest, or that there are galaxies we haven't discovered I think has meaning even if there is no human observing it. I guess this is where my belief in an omnipotent God-force comes in, too. I had an experience once when I was in England where somehow everything seemed connected: the sidewalk, the letter I was mailing, the clouds, the air, the rain, the passers-by. I can't really explain it... I just read somewhere that a Buddhist writer I love said that anything you write is directly affected by everything you have ever experienced. It rang true for me and I don't know how it would make sense only to say it is so. Likewise I heard W.S. Merwin speak recently (!!) and he said that poetry is what comes out after unbelievable anguish--after the cry of anguish you can make syllables. It is all common experience--and I think though we have unique ways to express it, it's all just one thread... Kind of like how people say artists are reflecting reality back to you. Or something. Hope I'm making sense.

I guess that tree falling thing has always bothered me, for people to think that things wouldn't keep happening in nature unless they were there to observe it. So a ton of birds started dropping dead due to DDT before any humans noticed it, but I don't think that made the effects any less real. Or there could be birds chirping and one could be lost in their own mind (no pun intended), but that doesn't mean the birds aren't chirping just because they can't hear it. And same with color to a blind person--if the person next to them isn't blind, I don't think the colors are CHANGING just because that person is there. I do like the idea of the mind/all minds being aware of everything. It makes sense to me because I've perceived things or known things I've had no logical way of knowing--that someone is going to call before I hear the phone ring, things like that. I think my students can pick up on things without even realizing it--whether or not they act on their intuition is a whole 'nother story. This stuff is fascinating...

6. The world is nothing more than an embodiment of the objects perceived by the five sense-organs. Since, through these five sense-organs, a single mind perceives the world, the world is nothing but the mind. Apart from the mind can there be a world? Is that like asking if a tree falls in the forest, can anybody hear? I mean, some people don't have all five of their senses but that doesn't make sight or sound any less real... And does this only apply to humans? I'm not sure if animals can develop the same level of awareness as humans can, but I do believe animals can perceive objects using their senses irrespectively of whether or not humans do the same. Also, aren't there animals or insects without "minds" as we know them who also perceive the world? And isn't there more to the world than just objects that are perceived by the senses? What about emotions?

I did read something the other day that said brain patterns were the same when someone was, say, cycling or simply having a dream about cycling. Not sure how that applies... I guess what I learned is that there is the physical and there is the nonphysical (and of course the two are linked) but it always STARTS in the physical. Hmmm... And I guess I'd apply that to form and non-form or whatever. Plus didn't Ramana have a body and senses too?

I mean I always think of intuition etc. as being outside of the body -- but I guess this is wrong too, because I physically feel sensations in my gut, feelings I believe reside physically in the heart, nerves in the body... Hmmmm.... And who is to say that whatever it is would be freed from sensations? Why can't whatever it is have sensations outside the body?? Okay and here's the poem I quoted just for fun: http://www.spinwwweaver.net/wwrww.html

I guess my view of dreams and things that not everyone can see but are just as present as things you can see is just that those aspects aren't developed in some people because they never got training. I guess through some of my training I learned to see auras and to move the dreaming body around--just like what happens in dreams except more consciously--I guess I "believe" in it and can "see" it in the same way I "see" form and not-form. So it doesn't seem as much like illusion to me. Or something.

I get the seeing beyond the physical through our eyes... actually it reminds me of part of a poem by Clarissa Pinkola Estes where she talks about how "we see not through two eyes only but through the many eyes of intuition."

I'm just really confused.

Should we go on to 4?

I never understood all the Zen/Buddhist/heart sutra stuff but I do believe in the interconnectedness of all things so maybe that is a start. I do like the idea of not sitting and arguing about whether or not the world is illusion and just experiencing it. Geshe Michael (interesting that I'm quoting him so much because I've only heard him speak a handful of times) called those people "dharma monsters" who would argue about the letter of the law but not practice. What is knowing one's self is the only big question I have. What is this state of no objective outlook or notions of unity/duality, self and ego.

2. All religions postulate the three fundamentals, the world, the soul, and God, but it is only the one Reality that manifests Itself as these three. One can say, 'The three are really three' only so long as the ego lasts. Therefore, to inhere in one's own Being, where the 'I', or ego, is dead, is the perfect State. Okay, so the interconnectedness of the world, the soul and God. Is this like a whole I make my own reality thing? I'm also not clear on what he means by killing the I or ego. Is killing the ego understanding that one is not separate from their world and from God? Because I think you could see the interconnectedness and still be egotistical... or even not believe in interconnectedness and be quite humble.

Yeah, I guess I've heard of advaita but I remember that Geshe Michael Roach said that the idea of there not being "I" or "you" or individual entities was a "dharma rumor." That it was our actions that connected us in an interwoven web of giver and receiver... But then when I went to my ten-day Vipassana brainwashing session five years ago, I remember the guru on video and on tape we had to listen to was saying there is no "I, you or we." Someone asked him in an interview what exactly we were trying to get rid of through meditating then, and he said "ignorance." But then, who is it that is meditating? So I get confused by this whole thing... I remember Heisenberg now.

I saw this as being about the whole "don't look at my finger, look at the moon" stuff... or that quote about how we don't see things as they are, we see things as we are... To be aware we are looking through a filter... So like if I tell my students a story there is the student, the story being told, the way they interpret the story and their reasoning for interpreting it that way. Is this too literal of a view? I don't know the Advaita Vedanta... is Heisenberg's principle like the Schrodinger cat thing? As far as "various powers," I interpreted it as meaning that each of the things listed (i.e. the person perceiving, the perceived, etc.) is a power... From our perception of the world there follows acceptance of the principle...because eventually you perceive that the different persons perceiving have different perceptions? LOL. That's a tongue twister...

To be aware is to contemplate awareness? I agree--the second part does seem sort of Buddhist... If you are not attached to your idea of yourself or to your stuff, then you are not afraid of death. Whew, that was easy so far.

Can I put a vote in for Ramana's 40 Verses on Reality?

Sean, where in CR? My parents live out there and i had a great visit, maybe you saw the pics I linked to on myspace! Good luck, Cam! Your apartment complex was kind of sketchy--lots of methheads.

Yeah, he got him in a leg lock...cool stuff. Here's info on knee bars: http://www.lockflow.com/article_view.php?id=36

I was also excited to see Brock Lezner get his ass kicked.

Actually, if you watched last night you would've seen some people using very technical brazilian jiu jitsu against all-out thugs. it was impressive.

And I thought there'd be real jiu jitsu.

Well, I still haven't seen the movie but I've been trying a little experiment to watch the mini-videos, the free ones, on the site each day. I like the Secret Of You one a lot and have noticed my attitude shift a teeny bit, but I'm mostly interested in Secret of Riches because I'm tired of my poverty mentality. However, the video bothered me a little bit because everyone in it was white and male except for the genie, and of course the money had to be American... Still I'm going to keep watching it for a while as an experiment. I noticed work didn't suck quite so bad today, and I also got this really cool free Hans Decoz numerology report (actually several) from a friend today...and a call from my exboyfriend, of all people. Not that i was dying to talk to him. But I'm keeping track of the weird and unexpected. I want to read and write more but have made a vow to shut down my computer at 9:30 on school nights.

http://www.rosstraining.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7905&

One important thing for me too is the type of water bottle to use, I use the non-glossy Nalgenes... Actually I wrote about it in my article on water: http://www.dirttime.org/2007/06/27/water-is-life/ and I also distribute Multi-pure filters if anybody wants one. They are offering a free gift for the next four months where anyone who orders a water filter can receive either a free shower filter or 2 stainless steel water bottles with a carry case. I've been doing salt sole every morning, I love it!!! I want to buy some of the crystal salt bath stuff too, anybody tried it? We used to have a store in Tucson that sold the crystal lamp things but it went out of business. I don't have the plug-in lamp but I have the kind you put a little tealight in.