Spelk

I'm intrigued by the idea that Taoists and Buddhists have a different idea of what emptiness is. Emptiness was introduced into the Tao from Buddhism, and the assumption seems to be that a different meaning of it evolved - in part due to losing some of the original meaning during the translation into Chinese Buddhist terms. But the meaning is still there, described by the Tao in just the way that any Buddhist would think of the term. I know that some people prefer the Tao to remain subjective so that they can have their own meaning. I understand that and don't want to deny them that at all. I did a quick Wiki for a concise view of Taoist emptiness. Not the best source at times, I know, but I think accurate enough here: "Taoism In Taoism, attaining a state of emptiness is viewed as a state of stillness and placidity which is the "mirror of the universe" and the "pure mind".[24] The Tao Te Ching claims that emptiness is related to the "Tao, the Great Principle, the Creator and Sustainer of everything in the universe". It is argued that it is the "state of mind of the Taoist disciple who follows the Tao", who has successfully emptied the mind "of all wishes and ideas not fitted with the Tao's Movement". For a person who attains a state of emptiness, the "still mind of the sage is the mirror of heaven and earth, the glass of all things", a state of "vacancy, stillness, placidity, tastelessness, quietude, silence, and non-action" which is the "perfection of the Tao and its characteristics, the "mirror of the universe" and the "pure mind"..." Let me just reword that a little: "In Buddhism, attaining a state of emptiness (Kensho in Zen) is viewed as a state of stillness and placidity which is the "mirror of the universe" and the "pure mind". [24] Buddhism claims that emptiness is related to the "Dharmakya, the Great Principle, the Creator and Sustainer of everything in the universe". It is argued that it is the "state of mind of the Buddhist disciple who follows the Path of knowing emptiness and Dharmakaya", who has successfully emptied the mind "of all wishes and ideas not fitted with the path". For a person who attains a state of emptiness, the "still mind of the sage is the mirror of heaven and earth, the glass of all things", a state of "vacancy, stillness, placidity, tastelessness, quietude, silence, and non-action" which is the "perfection of Dharmakaya and its characteristics, the "mirror of the universe" and the "pure mind"..." Our emptiness is the same, our goal is the same, via exactly the same states of mind. I would be very interested in discussing what people think of as our differences regarding the subject of emptiness. I'm sincerely not doing this to be confrontational, on the contrary, I want to show not only how much we share, but also point people towards useful texts that Taoists can use to actualise an experience of emptiness/the Tao/Dharmakaya. All the terms above are commonly used in Taoist texts, and they're just the same as those that we would use in Ati. To help reduce the number of ideas this might attract, can replies more concern what the Tao and its Sages say on the subject, then there's a consistent view. Spelk

Hi Xabir. I'm not sure how extensive a reply you want so I'll be brief. Yes, I've recognised rigpa. The kayas are empty as three, empty as one. How emptiness relates to practice depends on what level you're at and what techniques you're using. Initially, the gaining of a strong, inherent sense of emptiness (literally confidence in it as a basic facet of yourself and reality) is an important tool which helps break down your normal sense of duality. It's not used in isolation, but in conjunction with other similar understandings concerning reality, each helping balance out the other to help the student avoid thinking of reality or emptiness in the wrong or too extreme a way. Eventually your appreciation of the empty nature of samsara and the cognizance of it go hand in hand. You aren't thinking 'emptiness is 'X' and applying it to your reality to make it empty, but knowing it already is empty in a very simple, natural way. It's also about the conclusions it leads you to, as it has an impact upon how and why you do subsequent techniques. Emptiness is a part of an understanding of the nature of realty, but not all of it. In the Tao and other traditions, emptiness links the baseless extremes of yin and yang, shows the middle without self-essence. On natural direct perception of this the two truths of relative and ultimate reality dissolve into non-duality. i.e. - if you look at reality and know that it is without self nature and is non-dual then there are no 'two truths', all is one. If you look at reality without understanding what it is, then the two truths remain separated. Spelk

Hi Seth, nice to meet you too. Could you give me an example of the terms you're finding? Spelk

Thankyou, yes, Dzogchen, Nyingma tradition. Spelk

I follow the Ati tradition, I hope this will help. Emptiness means that: Nothing comes into existence without reliance on things that went before it. Existence is always co-dependent. This means that in a relative sense and from our samsaric POV, objects seem to exist as individual things to us. Stepping back into the POV of the whole, there are no individual things, only a single flux. Relative and ultimate points of view are both spoken of in the Tao. Everything is an 'aggregate', ie, the combination of other things. Take a house for example. A house isn't really a house, but a name we give to wood, bricks and mortar - the aggregates used to build the house. These aggregates are also made up of other aggregates, and these in turn of more aggregates. 11 Thirty spokes converge in one hub Then depending upon what does not exist is the vehicle’s usefulness Mold clay in order to produce a vessel Then depending upon what does not exist is the vessel’s usefulness Cut out doors and windows in order to make a dwelling Then depending upon what does not exist is the dwelling’s usefulness Thus, the existence of something serves to make value The lack of something serves to make utility Emptiness isn't anything in and of itself, or an ultimate field. Think of it as a principal, the 'action' of reality. Saying a fire is hot or that ice is cold doesn't mean that fire is made of hot or that ice is made of cold, the terms just describe an aspect of their existence. In the same way, all is empty. As emptiness is just a label for a flow that really can't be labelled as a single thing, emptiness too is empty, a name for something without inherent self-existence. It's a term made by creating ideas out of other terms, it's a label for something that is beyond labels. An unbroken continuity does not permit description - A return home to non existence And so this is called the form of the formless The image of nothingness It is called obscure & elusive When it is met its head is not seen When it is followed its end is not seen To grasp the path of the ancients Is the way to master present existence The capacity to comprehend the ancient beginnings May be called the clue* to the way It breaks down our fixed idea that 'things' (you, me, cows) and reality exist in the way we normally think. It puts them beyond existence and non-existence and turns them into being an almost illusory - but not quite - non-dual, display. We can't say that there is self or other, we can only say there is a phenomena here of indeterminate nature. Why is this important? Because it stops us reifying (labelling) things. Once we no longer see reality as something we can label then we see it as it truly is, and this has repercussions. Thinking a rope is a snake prevents the rope being perceived correctly by your mind. You see an illusion, not what's truly there. In the same way, letting go of the concept that all things are individual and exist/do not exist,/neither/both allows you to more clearly perceive what is actually here. In some forms of Buddhism, knowledge of emptiness is used to create bliss. After a time, the bliss helps promote the sense of emptiness, creating greater bliss, etc. until such a time when the direct perception of emptiness and bliss are continual. Bliss is useful, though not an end in itself. In Ati, we use knowledge of reality to take us to an understanding that allows the appearance of useful states that appear naturally and spontaneously without meditating in the normal sense. The Tao: To know without knowledge is best (i.e. to know reality without labelling it, knowing only those aspects of its fundamental nature that do not restrict it into being this or that. Attaining perfect emptiness Remain patient & sincere The myriad beings arise as one (non-duality) Through this we observe the return Of beings in numberless multitudes Each coming home to its root (each being revealed to be nothing other than one flux of movement without self-nature) The Tao on understanding our non-dual nature: The yielding becomes whole The bent becomes straight The hollow becomes replenished The worn becomes renewed The diminished becomes endowed The plentiful becomes doubtful This is why wise ones embrace unity Adopting nature as model Without self-display And thus clear Without self-righteousness And thus distinguished Without self-assertion And thus having merit Without self-glorification And thus enduring It is only when there is no contending That none in the world can contend against them The ancient ones had reasons to claim “The accommodating becomes whole” Is this (just) empty talk now? (When) wholeness is real then one has come home (when non-duality is realised as factual, the student has begun to perceive reality correctly). Emptiness is an observable scientific fact, not anything remote and spiritual. Nothing comes into existence without reliance on the other things that come before it, or without continuing to interact with its environment in tens of ways before it passes away. Nothing has inherent self, everything is a label applied to a set of aggregates. The implications of this: 1) Isn't that nothing exists, that would be nihilism, it's an error to associate the terms 'voidness' and 'emptiness' with 'nothingness'. 'Voidness', refers to the fact that things are void of inherent self-existence, not of ALL existence. 2) Emptiness points to the positive too, not just negative. Reality would not exist without the interlinked flow of events (emptiness) that led to its appearance. Form is emptiness, emptiness is form. 3) That all is one in its empty nature. Emptiness shows that things share a non-dual nature, meaning that nothing is apart from the whole. Non-duality doesn't mean that a fish is the same as a horse, but that all things share the same conditions (emptiness) and are therefore equal. Everything is one in emptiness. Spelk

Hi Everyone, nice to meet you. I practice Dzogchen and am interested in joining some of the discussions here. Spelk