flowing hands

So what are you saying? No one is allowed to question the validity of that system? Sounds like its going down the root of corruption and dictatorship. This is how many cults and religions still exist that control the behavior, because people are not allowed to question their validity. The world and its people have been truly messed up by religious sects etc.

this is one of the important chapters within the verses.

Bad mouth is what you do, I try to stick to facts and explain myself factually and logically, showing where there is deep misguidance and misunderstanding. That is not slander nor bad mouthing it is looking at what is going on based on what I have been taught and what I have experienced while I was in Malaysia of other Daoist spiritual systems and the common theme that runs through such practices in every culture that practices spiritual arts. Your school does not tick many boxes according to research and tradition throughout the world and is more like one of these mixed up Indian cults where a person or people such as you, canvas forums to gain more members and lets face it that's what you are doing here, you rarely make any contribution to any other part of this forum. You say your teacher is Tai Sung, yet you have never appeared at his teachings section or commented. Tai Sung is of course only known for his monumental work. Tai Sung is my teacher so I am there all the time. Why aren't you? James Randy has exposed so many frauds, do you think he is slanderous? He just uses facts and his vast experience to expose these people. So do I, that's not slander, you need to grasp a better use of English. My school do not advertise, I rarely put down anything about the school and because I no longer live in Malaysia I have no contact with the rest of all the temples and its people. There is no hierarchy, any one can go into a temple and beg the Immortal master to teach them and that is the case for all the temples of any Immortals. If you can find fault with anything that I practice then it is your prerogative to say so, it is not slander, you would be expressing an opinion whether educated or not, which is what I have done. But you have taken exception to that because what I have said had shown some very big questions about what you do. I don't canvas on TDB's for students, or have a Facebook page and like my teacher says in his philosophy "followers of the Dao don't make a show". I just try and help guide people in a way that will be genuine that will make some sense to them; there are enough lost souls in this world without creating more. What I meant by I don't understand you, is that anyone who is taught by Immortals would not act and say the things that you did. I don't know you from Adam so I have not commented on you as a person only on what you have been saying and what you have shown. Your likes and dislikes are of no concern of mine and are transient. But I know that; The Immortals don't like people who show a snide side to them, who will actively torture and bait someone and bad mouth them and then say, but remember you've got to keep your word and not defend yourself and if you do, look you've broken your word, ha ha he he. Cunning that is and bad hearted behaviour. That's very telling and this would not come from someone who is taught by Immortals.

Effilang I can't understand you, you write all this stuff in answer to me and yet you bait me and poke fun and nastiness and this has been your way all along. 'please make a thread elsewhere and litter it with as much of your sentiment as fills your heart, but kindly stop coming on my thread and regurgitating the same stuff over and over again. You're a grown man, have some dignity.' Oh, wait, you did make that thread already, if I recall. I guess nobody was paying you attention there. I've heard that before, several times actually, but you keep coming back. Let's see if you're a man of your word and actually have the dignity to follow through this time.' Méiyǒu xīn, Jiǎ xīn, Bù zūnzhòng

This off topic and a personal question you may ask me in a pm.

Ah... but Effilang has chosen not to value my communication or my opinion, by dissolving any posts that were incriminating to his end. It was he who decided of his own free will to delete a pm unread, that I sent him and banning any communication from me. I said in this pm that I would not post anymore on his thread. But he deliberately devalued the communication between us, so he left me with no choice, but to continue till my point was made and recognised. I, as the head of my sect, have not the slightest interest in Effilang or his school, or what he and his school wish to believe and practice, it is up to them. But when my teacher tells me that he has nothing to do with this school and like many, it is only in name, I have the duty to defend my teachers good name and reputation. He is one of the highest Immortals in the Heavens and he just can't be ordered around and simply be made to take on new students because he is told to, like some dumb servant. That is simply senseless and against thousands of years of tried and tested traditional training and teaching. No human Sifu worth their weight would do so, so why would an Immortal of such great standing act like a dumb idiot? So this is my last words on the subject.

Immortals are beyond 'showy' things and would not make such an exhibition. The basis of their principles are that of humbleness and definitely not making a show. The Chan hand is not part of the Daoist remit. I have never been taught this, even though one of my masters is a Buddha (Chi Tien Da Shen). Over the thirty five years of teaching me many styles of martial art, this has never occurred even in one style that came from Shaolin that he taught me. The Chan hand is relatively a new hand development.

Ah but this is a 'translation', mine is from the horses mouth.

Yes is the answer and without abash it is mine! Find the link through my personal practice section and download it its free.

Ritual is useless without power. If one has power there is no need for ritual, it is simply dispensed.

The first thing that put me on to your case was the fact that while you were in your diapers I was accepted as a student of Tai Sung Lao Jun. In a proper Daoist school a senior student of the same master is given the respect and deferred to straight away, but you, no, your teaching doesn't hold with that and you quite blatantly and easily argued with me showing no respect or deferential attitude. I sent you a pm saying that I wasn't going to comment any further on your thread, which you didn't read and deleted straight away, which you told me, that you had done this and by doing so, anything I could say was of no value. Well I will tell you now exactly what is happening to you and all the others who get initiated. You are at the time given some fa by the teacher in the name only of Tai Sung Lao Jun. The teacher does not go into a trance of the divine master. The fa mixes with your own energy and so when you concentrate, your own energy takes over and is moving and teaching you. You must remember that the mind absorbs millions of things every second, although consciously we can't remember 99% of them. So when you stimulate your own mind and soul you can produce all sorts of illusions and that's why you can produce a shen gong that actually has very little to do with real shen gong and why it has many Buddhist hand and techniques. Because it comes from your own mind and not from an external spirit. Of course once into this cycle of mind/spirit practice one goes deeper into it and therefore it is self convincing of its authenticity, but really it is your own mind that is teaching you.

No not at all fella, you basically have been immoral, you deleted my posts because I showed that what you were doing could not be from the source that you claim and then I discover that you are boasting about the fact that I showed you up and your mixed bag of shen gong, with Buddhist hands and other techniques that were not even the slightest bit Daoist and certainly an originator like Tai Sung would not use these, as these were well after his time and then say that I took a 1970's swing at you and failed. I'm afraid it is you who has failed, you have more importantly failed to impress me the student of Tai Sung Lao Jun who has received his teachings for over thirty five years. I know what he teaches and how he teaches and what his system is and it is not some mixed bag of tricks that has been borrowed from other religions and other practices. Either take it or shut up whinging.

Totally a mixed bag of tricks, borrowed from other religions. Tai Sung Lo Jun is a Daoist; an originator and does not borrow from other religions. I have swung but you have no solid answers.

Hmm..... what right have you got to call me a plastic shaman? As far as I can see you have it all wrong and don't know anything about the history of Daoism and Lao Tzu, nor anything about shamanism, So Mr plastic historian, if you understood Lao Tzu you would realize that he would not want to start a religion nor would he even know the word 'sin', let alone come to any one without fist begging him to come and proving that they were worthy of his time and effort. New ageism, what an idiot, my name is the English equivalent to the name many Daoist adepts were called who had successfully cultivated their energy so when they performed martial arts their hands moved with a powerful flowing energy. So plastic historian did you know that one? Obviously not. Yes one can see folk Daoism has some elements in what I do and I was accepted and blessed in a temple in Malaysia under the guidance of another shaman master. There is no Temple in the country where I live, so the Immortal master asked me to build one, not ostentatious or grand, but small and being the shaman I begged the Immortal master to come and bless this. Where I live Christians abound and Daoism is not known about. There I help people with their illnesses etc. I serve the community at large far and wide for nothing. No plastic there and I don't take plastic either. Get your facts right before you make judgements and what you are saying are facts can never be proven and are just historical BS.

Le Erh Xian Shi is giving us another description in words of the indescribable, the unknowable. But gives us an indication of how we can know. An elusion to self cultivation and a change of perception.

Thanks MH, you will see if one looks carefully that power is generated from the hips, stabilised by the lower legs in a turning spiralling motion. The 'round' strikes are very difficult to block and to parry and the turning blocks very effective against incoming attack and incoming energy used against the opponent. Whip like palm strikes are used, again very difficult to defend against. It is a shame that only a small portion of each form is shown because there are some interesting ground work in all of the forms in terms of rolls, sweeps kicks stand ups and evasions etc.

Sorry my silly computer needs to be recycled plus I am unable to cut the original vid from my post and replace it with the right one. The tools of the site seem a bit lacking.

Here are some bits of forms including the beginning of a Tai Ji form. Unfortunately these were originally recorded 21 years ago on tape and have been uploaded on a Mac, then converted for windows, so they are pretty bad quality. Equally without buying a converter I have only been able to upload the first bit of each form.

It is very difficult, some years back I took some students to the national champs and the organiser who is a well known Tai Ji teacher recognised me and asked me to do some judging. When he said to me can you judge the internal arts for me I said yes, but I teach external. He was surprised, I didn't really want to say that actually they were both and could not be labelled as either. So one of my students entered into the internal section doing the short form of the 'Flowing Hand art', long form can be seen on my vid. He just did it slowly with some varying emphasis. But really it was an external art. My other students entered the externals doing the long form of Gong Jian Quan (Bow and Arrow Fist). One student did the first form and won a medal and another did the very difficult and very long second form. The third form I have never taught to any one, it is called 'Du Jian Quan (Poison Arrow Fist). So you see I have great difficulty with people who say that there is a difference, because I been taught that actually there isn't!

I personally don't think one can distinguish between the two. I have been taught thirteen different styles of Daoist arts and all generate power within a form in so many different ways that one cannot say this is internal and that is external. I learnt an 'external' form called 'Lightening fist' this involved some very nasty whip like strikes, a bit like fork lightening but if one was to use the measure that most seem to label an art as 'internal' or 'external', one, they would find it difficult to do so, two they would probably misname it, because it is both and complete.

Good on you, I pick up snails that start to cross the road so that they won't get squashed, I'm afraid I love things too much to allow wu wei to happen!

What is this verse all about? The first part is quite obvious and the next part is to do with self cultivation. Then Li Erh goes to describe a bit about his feelings of how it is like to be nourished by the great way and not by the taste and desires of ordinary men. He then describe how he would appear to others who look upon him who are still concerned with worldly desires.

I think what you have been told is one stock way of telling people, but the truth actually is very different. The Chinese are very good at hiding the real truth and deceiving others in keeping secrets away from their enemies. So they make up some process that actually really doesn't exist and the real truth is lost and a great many of the Chinese no longer know what actually is the truth. What you say is typical of the type of story. The real truth lies in science and not unproven myths and it is very simple. The most important aspects are the development of the lower dan tien; when you start exercising this properly, your genitals will recede towards the inside of your body. Now the lower dan tien is the battery of life. This battery is governed by your Jing or genetics from your family. Some people can start off with very good jing, others not so. So one has to start by stimulating this battery and the very source of its power and as one goes on over the years one can easily feel this power, control it, send it out and lots of other things. It is like sending volts through your body but you have control of them. These volts make your bones strong, your sinew and muscles strong when you want them to be for this is the very force that makes them move and be alive. So over the years of practice and cultivation the volts in the battery get bigger and bigger and so does the potency. Now I could tell you this in the most flowery of language and terms and leave bits out and really who would be the wiser. The Immortal Masters do not lie and when they teach you, they teach you properly, so what I am saying is what they taught me and what I have been cultivating for all these years. All I can say is results start coming very quickly, because it is explained properly, scientifically and not lost in a load of myth and mistruth.

I think you are mixing up your terms and falling into the already made trap of what is external and what is internal. Lets start with the basics. A Daoist art is like the yin/yang symbol and the Hexagrams around it. If something is practiced only in one way it is not balanced; one cannot acquire internal power (there are lots of differing understandings and opinions on what this is) by simply doing slow relaxed exercise. Lets look at the basic process of Jin: The process involves the slowly building up of electricity. Electricity powers our bodies and of course more importantly our muscles. This electricity comes from the food, water and breath that we take. We must stimulate it, we must nurture it, etc etc. How we do this is specific exercises to develop it, that's not just doing Tai Ji or any other art. The clue I have already given. So we may use the muscles in these exercises which may get stronger, it is the electricity that we are trying to generate more. So when I have demonstrated internal power, I have used heavy inanimate objects, moved them with one or two fingers in a totally relaxed and upright stance. I have then got others to use both hands and a strong stance to move the same object which they could slightly or not at all. Now I am using the power I would use to strike, block etc. in an external way. I am externalising internal power that has been developed by external means. Your story does not add up for it would mean that the recent defeat of the top Tai Ji Master would take up MMA? No it was that his practice was not as focused on martial means and he did not know how to externalise internal power. Nor did he have the iron palm/arm which would have made his blocks very painful to the MMA guy. It is really easy to push people over, especially when they do not resist and do not stand in a strong stance. Even a small child can do it, its all about mechanics. No one yet has shown me that they can really externalise internal power, by not using a compliant student or weak legged person. This is why when I used to teach many years ago, I would demonstrate the power using only very heavy objects and certainly not people.

Yes, exactly and how Tai Ji was also taught and the way I was taught. Before starting off one would warm up and exercise the 'blood qi' apply the 'iron fist oil', do the training and finish then with further so called 'internal' exercises to finish. Then new oil applied. If one went too strong and hurt the part you were conditioning you then applied with ginger the 'iron fist wine'. After some years of training the Sifu would give you iron fist wine that you could take internally. As you progressed and you became more powerful so the 'iron fist' formulae would change and so would the exercises and the things you trained with. In many of the styles I have practiced it is absolutely necessary that one trains in these arts, all have elements of internal power and fingers penetrating the body and power let go to do extensive internal damage to your enemy.